2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:28 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:31 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:22 am
FIA's duty is to protect the drivers from themselves. I find it completely unacceptable they are putting the blame on the drivers.

It's impossible to completely prevent a hot headed pilot from doing something silly, however the onus is on FIA to minimize such occurences as much as reasonably possible. Delaying the safety car lights does exactly the opposite.
100%
Or using the argument in any way that whatsoever 'for the show' is a bigger concern or even any sort of factor to consider in comparison to keeping drivers safe.
Someone could have been seriously hurt at that restart thanks to their screwed up priorities in decision making.

Cars could have been torpedoed side on by another at high speed, and I'm pretty sure I saw a wheel or part of a car almost entering a cockpit- halo proving it's worth right there.
Cars overtaking each other is dangerous. So in your point of view wed should get rid of DRS, overtake button and the rest gimmicks as well?

I really have no idea why a rolling start should be too dangerous for F1...I only understand, that the current regulation is not perfectly fitting the procedure...SC speed till Start/Finish would clear things up.
Cars overtaking under regular circumstances is somewhat different to a big pile up on a straight caused by the SC procedure specific to this track. I don't really know why you even see it as a means of comparison?

A rolling restart it not dangerous in itself as we have seen countless times and no-one is moaning about that, but this time, the circumstances the race director put them in were dangerous and I'm sure even you'll agree that if the teams TOLD them it would lead to problems on this track and they rejected this valid point in favour of it looking good on TV, then that's negligent and disgraceful.

It's clear the drivers from their position in the cockpits cannot not see what was developing several cars in front of them on a straight. If the lights are green and you see the car ahead of you accelerate away, then you obviously also accelerate. No blame to any of the drivers for this. BUT it resulted into someone driving at high speed right into the back of someone else and then hitting other cars. Very scary. The blame is all on that idiot Masi and his braintrust with their screwed up priorities.

basti313
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
Cars overtaking under regular circumstances is somewhat different to a big pile up on a straight caused by the SC procedure specific to this track. I don't really know why you even see it as a means of comparison?
The point is simple:
If you have a long enough time from safety car lights out to green flag, then you have a grid at race speed through 2-3 corners, 1 sec gaps between the cars and DRS off. Means no overtaking at all. In the worst case like in Monza for the next 5-10 laps until DRS trains start to split.
If you favor the safety car restart without overtaking for security, then why not get rid of overtaking at all for security reasons?
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
A rolling restart it not dangerous in itself as we have seen countless times and no-one is moaning about that
We never had a rolling start in F1 so far. It was always race speed through several corners so far. A rolling restart means you go slow to start/finish and then accelerate on lights out.
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
It's clear the drivers from their position in the cockpits cannot not see what was developing several cars in front of them on a straight. If the lights are green and you see the car ahead of you accelerate away, then you obviously also accelerate. No blame to any of the drivers for this. BUT it resulted into someone driving at high speed right into the back of someone else and then hitting other cars. Very scary. The blame is all on that idiot Masi and his braintrust with their screwed up priorities.
I did not see much scary, it looked spectacular, but the cars only raised because of tires touching like in an overtaking accident. There was more scary stuff...Stroll hitting the barrier was much worse.

And the reason was simply that they were not prepared. Surprisingly the Mercs knew exactly, that they have to go slow to the start/finish line. I have no other idea why the others did not know this but that they simply did not prepare for a SC restart. The simply got surprised because of bad preparation.
Schippke wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:53 pm
Regarding the Safety Car lights out issue; I fail to see how that plays any real part in the chaos that occurred on the Restart. What happened was just a very odd scenario that had the possibility of happening at other tracks too... I don't know if you could blame any 1 driver for it (definitely not Bottas, who some were suggesting in previous pages), but theoretically it could also happen at any other track with a decent long straight; Monza? Baku? etc...

Having said that, maybe they should implement a rule that upon the Safety Car being announced as coming in on said lap, the lights should be turned off upon passing the end of the timing split of Sector 2. At least then it is the same for every track. Thoughts?
So how is this different to the non-overtaking restarts we had in the past? End of Sector 2 would be even longer than in the past...

falonso81
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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Don't know if someone noticed, but Albon passed Perez outside the track, after the last restart. I understand drivers running wide on their own, but a pass with all 4 wheels off the racing line?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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falonso81 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Don't know if someone noticed, but Albon passed Perez outside the track, after the last restart. I understand drivers running wide on their own, but a pass with all 4 wheels off the racing line?
Yes this one! I thought he should have given back the place.. but to be honest there was a dip in the road, and it was hard to see whether all four wheels were off the track.

falonso81
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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He just drove around him at turn 3. Dont know if they showed a replay, but it was clear as day on the live feed.

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RZS10
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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He was indeed "off track" but since they said that everything that isn't grass or gravel was 'the track' they didn't mind

The mere fact that the "10 best onboards" video is crash, crash, overtake, crash, crash, overtake, crash, 3rd restart, crash, crash shows what the rights holders are striving for ... lol

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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Surely, there has to be a penalty for Russell for that pile up?
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Jolle
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:52 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
Cars overtaking under regular circumstances is somewhat different to a big pile up on a straight caused by the SC procedure specific to this track. I don't really know why you even see it as a means of comparison?
The point is simple:
If you have a long enough time from safety car lights out to green flag, then you have a grid at race speed through 2-3 corners, 1 sec gaps between the cars and DRS off. Means no overtaking at all. In the worst case like in Monza for the next 5-10 laps until DRS trains start to split.
If you favor the safety car restart without overtaking for security, then why not get rid of overtaking at all for security reasons?
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
A rolling restart it not dangerous in itself as we have seen countless times and no-one is moaning about that
We never had a rolling start in F1 so far. It was always race speed through several corners so far. A rolling restart means you go slow to start/finish and then accelerate on lights out.
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
It's clear the drivers from their position in the cockpits cannot not see what was developing several cars in front of them on a straight. If the lights are green and you see the car ahead of you accelerate away, then you obviously also accelerate. No blame to any of the drivers for this. BUT it resulted into someone driving at high speed right into the back of someone else and then hitting other cars. Very scary. The blame is all on that idiot Masi and his braintrust with their screwed up priorities.
I did not see much scary, it looked spectacular, but the cars only raised because of tires touching like in an overtaking accident. There was more scary stuff...Stroll hitting the barrier was much worse.

And the reason was simply that they were not prepared. Surprisingly the Mercs knew exactly, that they have to go slow to the start/finish line. I have no other idea why the others did not know this but that they simply did not prepare for a SC restart. The simply got surprised because of bad preparation.
Schippke wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:53 pm
Regarding the Safety Car lights out issue; I fail to see how that plays any real part in the chaos that occurred on the Restart. What happened was just a very odd scenario that had the possibility of happening at other tracks too... I don't know if you could blame any 1 driver for it (definitely not Bottas, who some were suggesting in previous pages), but theoretically it could also happen at any other track with a decent long straight; Monza? Baku? etc...

Having said that, maybe they should implement a rule that upon the Safety Car being announced as coming in on said lap, the lights should be turned off upon passing the end of the timing split of Sector 2. At least then it is the same for every track. Thoughts?
So how is this different to the non-overtaking restarts we had in the past? End of Sector 2 would be even longer than in the past...
A real rolling starts would make a lot of difference. The problem with a start like last weekend that you couldn’t overtake until the start line. If the whole field got a green light at the same time, there wouldn’t been any braking in the pack. Now everybody tried to have a gap to get more speed then the car in front right at the line without being to much behind to get caught out.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:07 am
Did FIA provided any explanation about the SC switching off lights so late?
There was a quote from Bottas in a BBC article about it, where the team, or teams, raised concerns about it, but they were told it wouldn't change because (not even kidding) it was good for 'the show'.

That's drivers ploughing into each other at high speed. Good for the show.

Bottas said Mercedes had raised their concerns about the potential for exactly this sort of incident before the race at Mugello. They had noted that the FIA had been delaying the safety car lights going off further at every instance over a series of support races during the weekend.

"Our team opened up the discussion this morning before the race that it is a bit of a concern here," he said. "But they said basically they are going to keep doing it because it is better for the show.
Now I´m worried. I assumed there was a mistake at some side, but if it was on purpose... #-o

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:37 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:07 am
Did FIA provided any explanation about the SC switching off lights so late?
There was a quote from Bottas in a BBC article about it, where the team, or teams, raised concerns about it, but they were told it wouldn't change because (not even kidding) it was good for 'the show'.

That's drivers ploughing into each other at high speed. Good for the show.

Bottas said Mercedes had raised their concerns about the potential for exactly this sort of incident before the race at Mugello. They had noted that the FIA had been delaying the safety car lights going off further at every instance over a series of support races during the weekend.

"Our team opened up the discussion this morning before the race that it is a bit of a concern here," he said. "But they said basically they are going to keep doing it because it is better for the show.
Now I´m worried. I assumed there was a mistake at some side, but if it was on purpose... #-o
I feel exactly the same! Very worrying the teams voiced their concerns and they were ignored.

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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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falonso81 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Don't know if someone noticed, but Albon passed Perez outside the track, after the last restart. I understand drivers running wide on their own, but a pass with all 4 wheels off the racing line?
they'll penalize him right after they hand out penalties to few others for cutting chicanes with all 4 wheels... :lol:

I think it was Brundle that even said that during the race, but then quickly added something along the lines - they all do it, so I guess it's fine

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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:03 pm
falonso81 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Don't know if someone noticed, but Albon passed Perez outside the track, after the last restart. I understand drivers running wide on their own, but a pass with all 4 wheels off the racing line?
Yes this one! I thought he should have given back the place.. but to be honest there was a dip in the road, and it was hard to see whether all four wheels were off the track.
Perez needed to leave a cars width as well or he could be considered driving Albon off the road, kind of like what he did to Alex in Spa last year. Course limits were pretty much the gravel traps anyway. No need to give back the place, otherwise stewards would have made him.

blastdoman
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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Statement by Michael Masi (original source: https://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/20 ... b45e1.html):

Google translation:

"They can criticize all they want, from where the lights went down to the control line, it is probably no different, if not longer, than elsewhere. They are the 20 best drivers in the world and shortly before the F3 kids no they had problems ", he assures, denying that it is necessary to touch any rule. "There is no need to do so."

"I think there was a combination of factors and the long straight adds up, of course, but all the drivers are very aware that there is no overtaking until it is crossed, we talked about it at length on Friday before the race," insists Masi which accepts the stewards' report after the race: the pilots were inconsistent braking and accelerating behind Bottas, and they were too close to each other preventing visibility."

Pathetic statements as well as arrogant. Since nothing happened in F3, everything is fine and there are no rules to change. I think we're going to miss Whiting :wtf:

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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We already do miss dear old Charlie god rest his soul.

On the subect of the restart, why is Russell getting a lot of blame? To me it was clear Kvyat was the guy who left a gap to car in front, he then floored it, Ocon went with him, then Russell followed , the 3 of them were flat out for a few seconds, then they all slowed. Kvyat started the chain reaction. Watch Russells onboard and just before the pit entry the 2 cars in front floor it and Russell has to go, as the 2 cars in front have gone!
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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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blastdoman wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:35 am
Statement by Michael Masi (original source: https://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/20 ... b45e1.html):

Google translation:

"They can criticize all they want, from where the lights went down to the control line, it is probably no different, if not longer, than elsewhere. They are the 20 best drivers in the world and shortly before the F3 kids no they had problems ", he assures, denying that it is necessary to touch any rule. "There is no need to do so."

"I think there was a combination of factors and the long straight adds up, of course, but all the drivers are very aware that there is no overtaking until it is crossed, we talked about it at length on Friday before the race," insists Masi which accepts the stewards' report after the race: the pilots were inconsistent braking and accelerating behind Bottas, and they were too close to each other preventing visibility."

Pathetic statements as well as arrogant. Since nothing happened in F3, everything is fine and there are no rules to change. I think we're going to miss Whiting :wtf:
Just because Mercedes believe something is right, it's not the holy grail. Massi seems to have stones unlike any race director before. Whiting was a great bloke, but while he was race director, he had sterilised the sport in unnecessary spots and been way too lenient on some glaring issues. I don't want to get into details or specifics as he is no more and we should remember him for the positives.

There is one side of the coin blaming Bottas and while I don't loathe any driver more than him on the grid, you have to be a screw loose to be blaming him or attributing any blame to him for the mayhem behind him. The lights going out late ensures that while the leader still has a prerogative to bolt it, he is not ahead by a second when they cross the start finish line. The entire mayhem was created by someone in the middle of the pack deciding to bolt it and then decelerating resulting in a pile up and that was someone who I am a fan of i.e Russell.

Race control has done a decent job this year and if you ask me, it's a remarkable upgrade on the previous regime. We are racing in the wet. Standing starts etc. Some red flag rules need a look in, but that's up to the FIA.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"