2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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cooken
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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Why exactly are you singling out Russel? From what I've seen it was a bit of a cumulative thing, but if anything we can single out Kvyat. The recent overview from JP mentions him too. It seems like everyone back to and including Lando was keeping a relatively consistent gap to the car in front.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... I76K7.html

Part of the problem I have with Masi is that he's putting it all on the drivers. Sure they are culpable to some extent, but the mature and reasoned response would be to always see how he as race director can help avoid situations like this, exercise due diligence. His response was petty and childish. He easily could have said "let's see how we can improve things so that we don't place drivers in a position to take such risks, but keep in mind the drivers ultimately have to participate and so will always share the responsibility for how the events unfold".

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siskue2005
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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cooken wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm
Why exactly are you singling out Russel? From what I've seen it was a bit of a cumulative thing, but if anything we can single out Kvyat. The recent overview from JP mentions him too. It seems like everyone back to and including Lando was keeping a relatively consistent gap to the car in front.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... I76K7.html

Part of the problem I have with Masi is that he's putting it all on the drivers. Sure they are culpable to some extent, but the mature and reasoned response would be to always see how he as race director can help avoid situations like this, exercise due diligence. His response was petty and childish. He easily could have said "let's see how we can improve things so that we don't place drivers in a position to take such risks, but keep in mind the drivers ultimately have to participate and so will always share the responsibility for how the events unfold".
His answer was very childish indeed. Just imagine a person at his position claiming that F3 drivers didnt crash so it is F1 driver's problem. :?
It is like saying it was only Jules who crashed into the crane and rest cleared that corner without any issues, so there is no problem in putting out cranes on live track. :roll:

I so miss Charlie now, he was biased most of the time, but he knew when to correct himself and how to lead everyone

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RZS10
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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And as i've posted here yesterday - his statement was even factually incorrect viewtopic.php?p=928414#p928414
No matter whether you look at percentage of track length or just plain distance ... it was the shortest one so far with no other opportunity for Bottas to "surprise" the guys behind him other than bunching the field up on the straight and bolting just before the control line ...

e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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cooken wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm
Why exactly are you singling out Russel? From what I've seen it was a bit of a cumulative thing, but if anything we can single out Kvyat. The recent overview from JP mentions him too. It seems like everyone back to and including Lando was keeping a relatively consistent gap to the car in front.
From the replays I have seen, Russel had a gap to the cars in front. Him accelerating to catch up to them triggered the cars behind him to think the race is on again. He slows down and swings to the right so he gets missed by the cars colliding behind him.

notsofast
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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When the safety car is deployed, it is deployed for everyone at the same time; no passing allowed. So, when the safety car period ends, passing should be allowed for everyone at the same time as well. If Masi wants to spice things up for the show, he can choose when to turn the track back to green, but once it's green, everyone should be able to pass.

Diesel
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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notsofast wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:04 pm
When the safety car is deployed, it is deployed for everyone at the same time; no passing allowed. So, when the safety car period ends, passing should be allowed for everyone at the same time as well. If Masi wants to spice things up for the show, he can choose when to turn the track back to green, but once it's green, everyone should be able to pass.
That's effectively what a VSC does. Maybe that's an alternative, the SC transitions into a VSC and once the SC is safely in the pits they can lift the VSC randomly. Or maybe they will just go back to turning the SC lights off several corners before the finish line.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

kalinka
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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Diesel wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:37 pm
notsofast wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:04 pm
When the safety car is deployed, it is deployed for everyone at the same time; no passing allowed. So, when the safety car period ends, passing should be allowed for everyone at the same time as well. If Masi wants to spice things up for the show, he can choose when to turn the track back to green, but once it's green, everyone should be able to pass.
That's effectively what a VSC does. Maybe that's an alternative, the SC transitions into a VSC and once the SC is safely in the pits they can lift the VSC randomly. Or maybe they will just go back to turning the SC lights off several corners before the finish line.
I still think that a proper spotter/race engineer constantly reporting on the radio could have prevented this. You can often hear in Indycar when they play onboard radios during restarts how they're doing it > If you're back in the pack, your spotter constantly says "hold on, hold on..." ..and then "green, green ,go,go"...something along this. No matter where you are in the pack, you'll still know when you should accelerate. Accidents still happen there too, but there's no big speed delta between the cars. Maybe this is also prohibited before race starts/restarts in F1?

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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The problem is not waiting for the go, the problem is giving yourself extra meters and predicting the go. Perhaps everybody should stay within say 10 meters (with an allowance for temporary 15/20 but you should aim to keep constant distance.

That would diminish the spectacle of a restart but also the chance of a pile-up.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

ispano6
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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cooken wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm
Why exactly are you singling out Russel? From what I've seen it was a bit of a cumulative thing, but if anything we can single out Kvyat. The recent overview from JP mentions him too. It seems like everyone back to and including Lando was keeping a relatively consistent gap to the car in front.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... I76K7.html
Can't blame Kvyat because he didn't crash into anyone in front of him. Giovinazzi is at fault because he was first to actually ram into someone in front of him. There is no rule that says you can't speed up and then slow down before the start-finish line. You're not allowed to pass anyone until after the start-finish line. Sure, Kvyat had to slow down, but he didn't ram anyone. Giovinazzi was going too fast to be able to slow himself down in time. Simple as that.

e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:10 am
There is no rule that says you can't speed up and then slow down before the start-finish line.
I believe this isn't allowed? Hence why they kept re-iterating that Valteri was going at a constant speed through the restart. I think Martin Brundle also mentioned that you are not allowed to speed up and slow down randomly.

kalinka
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:10 am
cooken wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm
Why exactly are you singling out Russel? From what I've seen it was a bit of a cumulative thing, but if anything we can single out Kvyat. The recent overview from JP mentions him too. It seems like everyone back to and including Lando was keeping a relatively consistent gap to the car in front.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... I76K7.html
Can't blame Kvyat because he didn't crash into anyone in front of him. Giovinazzi is at fault because he was first to actually ram into someone in front of him. There is no rule that says you can't speed up and then slow down before the start-finish line. You're not allowed to pass anyone until after the start-finish line. Sure, Kvyat had to slow down, but he didn't ram anyone. Giovinazzi was going too fast to be able to slow himself down in time. Simple as that.
Giovinazzi couldn't see anything about what's happening , he was just following a car. That's why I think these restart should be guided by a spotter constantly guiding the driver trough the restart process.

A qute extensive analysis of the crash > https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2020/ ... crash.html

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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The fact is I can´t remind last pile up from a SC restart, so since I don´t believe in coincidences, the SC switching off lights so late might be the reason.

The straight should be with the throttle floored, if you force drivers to slow down in the straight because the leader will overtake the SC if he doesn´t, then this will happen frequently as all drivers know your speed in a straight depend on how soon you floored the throttle, so all of them will always try to floor it as soon as possible both to try a pass and to prevent the car behind passing you, but if the leader couldn´t because the SC is still in front of him... s*** will happen #-o

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:10 am
cooken wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm
Why exactly are you singling out Russel? From what I've seen it was a bit of a cumulative thing, but if anything we can single out Kvyat. The recent overview from JP mentions him too. It seems like everyone back to and including Lando was keeping a relatively consistent gap to the car in front.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... I76K7.html
Can't blame Kvyat because he didn't crash into anyone in front of him. Giovinazzi is at fault because he was first to actually ram into someone in front of him. There is no rule that says you can't speed up and then slow down before the start-finish line. You're not allowed to pass anyone until after the start-finish line. Sure, Kvyat had to slow down, but he didn't ram anyone. Giovinazzi was going too fast to be able to slow himself down in time. Simple as that.
I think Kvyat being blamed is simply down to people blaming Russell, Kvyat left a big gap, Norris in front of Kvyat never floored it, and never left a big gap to Perez. Kvyat then floored it, Ocon went with him, Russell realised "oh crap, I better get going" then everyone followed. Kvyat realised "crap , they havent gone for it yet, brake" Ocon, Russell, KMag, Latifi all slow and avoid a crash. Gio piles in and takes out multiple cars.

Basically, Gio hit everyone, but it was a chain of events that started with Kvyat leaving a gap, and then going flat out, and then braking hard.

Even in this video with the 'experts' they blame Russell here. They fail to see Kvyat leaving a gap, then accelerating away and then braking again. From Russells onboard, listen how hard he has to accelerate to try and keep up with Ocon. Ocon and Kvyat are flat out! Has anyone seen Kvyat's onboard ?

Jump to 1min 25sec.

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ispano6
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:11 am

I think Kvyat being blamed is simply down to people blaming Russell, Kvyat left a big gap, Norris in front of Kvyat never floored it, and never left a big gap to Perez. Kvyat then floored it, Ocon went with him, Russell realised "oh crap, I better get going" then everyone followed. Kvyat realised "crap , they havent gone for it yet, brake" Ocon, Russell, KMag, Latifi all slow and avoid a crash. Gio piles in and takes out multiple cars.

Basically, Gio hit everyone, but it was a chain of events that started with Kvyat leaving a gap, and then going flat out, and then braking hard.

Even in this video with the 'experts' they blame Russell here. They fail to see Kvyat leaving a gap, then accelerating away and then braking again. From Russells onboard, listen how hard he has to accelerate to try and keep up with Ocon. Ocon and Kvyat are flat out! Has anyone seen Kvyat's onboard ?

Jump to 1min 25sec.
Yeah I watched it many times and concluded it was Giovinazzi at fault for flooring it without any regard to what was happening. Over-eager before the start-finish line.
I recall Max doing the same at Brazil last year but he controlled the pace better than Bottas with weaving right up to the start-finish line. The point was to shorten the tow distance. There is no rule that says you have to floor it after the safety car peels off, the leader is allowed to back up the field up until the last moment.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix - Mugello, September 11 - 13

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I find it pretty difficult to put a lot of blame on any of the drivers for that mess. I’ll settle for the race director instead for purposely ignoring the team’s concerns that something like this may happen if they didn’t make some adjustments.

The drivers can basically see and do nothing, other than react to the 1-2 cars ahead of them when they are all in a line bunched up like that.