Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Schippke
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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hollus wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:43 am
2) Mandate all cars to use all three dry compounds in every race. And bring far apart compounds. Surely one tire would be only used for a lap, but that would create vastly divergent strategies and extra opportunities for versatile cars or drivers. Plus that would be truly, truly green as you need less tires overall.
This is what I've been thinking for years now; Whilst you'd argue it would 'artificially' make all the teams have to stop twice, it would no doubt add a fair bit of strategy to the mix... They'd then need to setup the car to work well on all 3 compounds, regardless of how useless one of those compounds might be. It might also make some teams think twice about what tyres they run for qualifying in Q2 to get into the Top 10. It is a good way to introduce strategy options, without having to resort to flipping the grid order back-to-front.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Schippke wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:35 pm
hollus wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:43 am
2) Mandate all cars to use all three dry compounds in every race. And bring far apart compounds. Surely one tire would be only used for a lap, but that would create vastly divergent strategies and extra opportunities for versatile cars or drivers. Plus that would be truly, truly green as you need less tires overall.
This is what I've been thinking for years now; Whilst you'd argue it would 'artificially' make all the teams have to stop twice, it would no doubt add a fair bit of strategy to the mix... They'd then need to setup the car to work well on all 3 compounds, regardless of how useless one of those compounds might be. It might also make some teams think twice about what tyres they run for qualifying in Q2 to get into the Top 10. It is a good way to introduce strategy options, without having to resort to flipping the grid order back-to-front.
And/or just let everyone start on whatever tyres they want in the top 10 as well? (and be able to keep it a secret until they are bolted onto the cars on the grid) Then at least you can have teams like RBR trying something different to catch other teams off guard without having to show their hand or sacrifice some ultimate pace in qualifying to go on to an alternate strategy.
Last edited by El Scorchio on Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

notsofast
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Processional races have always been a part of F1. (And not only F1. Go watch the Tour de France. Today's stage may very well be a 167km processional race followed by a mass sprint.) Nothing wrong with that. There are other types of motorsport for those who want something different.

It has gotten worse because of artificial limits that require drivers to "manage". Need to manage tyres to avoid an extra pit stop. Need to manage the engine, because we're only allowed three for the season. Need to manage fuel, because we're only allowed a limited amount. And pretty soon teams will need to manage the budget.

Unpredictable events make F1 interesting. Such events used to be real. Technical failure. Driver unable to control the car. Weather.

Reverse grids are fake. Sprinklers are fake. To some, the safety car in Monza was fake. More managing and fewer unpredictable events will kill the sport. Fake gimmicks will kill the sport as well.

FIA needs to focus on building a sport in which teams and drivers are performing at the limit of their capabilities.

Diesel
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:51 pm
I’ll just repeat myself again, fot those that missed it:

To overtake successfully, you need a time delta between cars. The bigger that delta, the better.

If all cars qualify according to their performance, but in reverse order, you are creating trains of cars unable to overtake each other, because the faster cars behind will not have a large enough delta to overtake the (slightly) slower car ahead of them.

This succession will carry to the front, where the slowest car will hold up the entire pack.

Good example are the last 20 laps of Monza where slower cars held up sligtly quicker ones for the entire race.

If that is supposed to be more exciting than what we have now, people really need a good shake and a bucket full of cold water to go with it.
100%, this is what I think will happen. They need to test it in a way that doesn't impact the championship, but I don't think it will be the massive spectacle they hope it will be.

To improve the racing without gimmicks they need to reduce that delta i.e. allow cars to run much closer together, and that's what the 2022 rules should bring [-o<
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

basti313
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Diesel wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:38 pm
Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:51 pm
I’ll just repeat myself again, fot those that missed it:

To overtake successfully, you need a time delta between cars. The bigger that delta, the better.

If all cars qualify according to their performance, but in reverse order, you are creating trains of cars unable to overtake each other, because the faster cars behind will not have a large enough delta to overtake the (slightly) slower car ahead of them.

This succession will carry to the front, where the slowest car will hold up the entire pack.

Good example are the last 20 laps of Monza where slower cars held up sligtly quicker ones for the entire race.

If that is supposed to be more exciting than what we have now, people really need a good shake and a bucket full of cold water to go with it.
100%, this is what I think will happen. They need to test it in a way that doesn't impact the championship, but I don't think it will be the massive spectacle they hope it will be.

To improve the racing without gimmicks they need to reduce that delta i.e. allow cars to run much closer together, and that's what the 2022 rules should bring [-o<
The problem is that even a low delta will result in the first iteration in an ordered grid. So in the end we still have artificially degrading tires like now...that at one point the teams handle quite well, but that prevent real racing. Or we have some other artificial stuff...

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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So assuming this was applied next season, the first "quali race" will have the Williams/Alfas at the front in some combination with the Mercs (or Hamilton and Max, depending how things go) at the back. At the end of that, the Mercs and Max will be perhaps midfield for the race. Perhaps they can make it to the front in the race but perhaps not. The at the next event, it'll likely be the Williams / Alfas at the front, the Mercs/Max a bit further forward. And then in the race, they'll be a bit closer to the front for the race. Perhaps they'll get there this time . Then they'll be leading the title race and so we'll go back to the first event's quali race positions, with the midfield runners in a varied order from the first time. Repeat with someone else starting at the back the next time, before the Mercs/Max are there again. In the end, it'll just come down to which races are in which order as to who ends up winning the title.

It's about as contrived a system as one might want. We'll end up with a load of race winners who basically luck in to it - a bit like Gasly in Monza. Not sure F1 should be about who lucks in to race wins. May as well all just roll dice to see what points they get each week.

Alternatively, we'll end up with a Hamilton-through-the GP2-field-in-Turkey style race each week featuring Lewis and Max against the rest. Which might be fun but will doubtless end up with people complaining "we just see Hamilton and Max overtaking people all the time and it's boring". :roll:
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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:13 pm
So assuming this was applied next season, the first "quali race" will have the Williams/Alfas at the front in some combination with the Mercs (or Hamilton and Max, depending how things go) at the back. At the end of that, the Mercs and Max will be perhaps midfield for the race. Perhaps they can make it to the front in the race but perhaps not. The at the next event, it'll likely be the Williams / Alfas at the front, the Mercs/Max a bit further forward. And then in the race, they'll be a bit closer to the front for the race. Perhaps they'll get there this time . Then they'll be leading the title race and so we'll go back to the first event's quali race positions, with the midfield runners in a varied order from the first time. Repeat with someone else starting at the back the next time, before the Mercs/Max are there again. In the end, it'll just come down to which races are in which order as to who ends up winning the title.

It's about as contrived a system as one might want. We'll end up with a load of race winners who basically luck in to it - a bit like Gasly in Monza. Not sure F1 should be about who lucks in to race wins. May as well all just roll dice to see what points they get each week.

Alternatively, we'll end up with a Hamilton-through-the GP2-field-in-Turkey style race each week featuring Lewis and Max against the rest. Which might be fun but will doubtless end up with people complaining "we just see Hamilton and Max overtaking people all the time and it's boring". :roll:
Probably a bit more sophisticated than that- you'll get Merc and RBR modelling the season for optimum points overall and aiming to finish in a variety of positions in different races rather then trying to banzai it to the front every time as it's not best for the long game- like it might be much more advantageous to finish 7th somewhere in order to set up the next couple of races etc. So you could get people squabbling over random places and driving deliberately slowly/letting cars past to get into that place. Could be farcical, could be dangerous, would probably be a giant mess.

And to add, then it just becomes even more about stats and prediction and driving to targets than just driving fast and to win. No-one will like that.

SmallSoldier
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Restomaniac wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:08 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:04 pm
So we currently have processions and people complain. We then have a completely mixed up grid and race due to a one time set of circumstances and people complain. The FIA try to do something to patch over the obvious current problems and people complain.

The FIA/Liberty have looked to help overtaking with a complete regs reset including helping cars follow each other and it was supposed to come into play next year added to caps to try and balance the field. However a global pandemic pushed it back 12 months.

It would be easy for the FIA to just shrug and say ‘tough’ they however are trying to do a short term fix to improve the racing. Can we at least give this a go bearing in mind that we actually have processional races currently which people keep complaining about.
But are there 'obvious current problems'? The only one that bothers me is that the cars can not run close behind or pass. This just makes it worse.

My particular 'problem' is with blue flag rules. One thing that stood out in that race was the cars were racing each other and being in the same race, instead of losing so much ground every time they are blue flagged they may as well be in a different race.

On a normal day, Gasly would have been blue flagged and told to jump out the way while a race goes by.
How can anyone categorically state that this makes it worse. How about we actually try it first. It if fails then we call all call it a failure.
Because it has implications in the Championship... Changing the rules mid season to try something “new” is not the way to go.

In addition, the problem is that it has been demonstrated that is very hard to make an overtake in F1 with the current cars, the reverse grid won’t help much this way (we just need to look at Monza, a track where in theory you can overtake) to understand that having a reverse grid won’t help much.

Finally, penalizing those that have a done a better job, because ultimately they will be penalized, isn’t in the spirit of competition.


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SmallSoldier
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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hollus wrote:Processional races has been an intermitent problem since the 90s. That mytical Hakkinen pass on Schumaches and Zonta in Spa is mythical because it was super-risky and it was only attempted in the first place because everyone and their dog knew that a) Hakkinen was faster and b) He would probably never manage to find a way through. At least that's how I remember it.

If the reverse grids are there just ensure passing, I can thing of two more elegant ways to ensure passing (which of course will prove to be full of holes upon closer inspection):
1) Mandate barn door wings. Top speeds of 310 sounds OK, we've been there before. And they would ensure not only a massive draft, but also a few flat-out corners to create effectively longer straights.
2) Mandate all cars to use all three dry compounds in every race. And bring far apart compounds. Surely one tire would be only used for a lap, but that would create vastly divergent strategies and extra opportunities for versatile cars or drivers. Plus that would be truly, truly green as you need less tires overall.
Your second point is my preferred option, with 2 mandatory pitstops (not necessarily 3 compounds)... There could be enough tire delta to promote overtaking, in addition, we will probably see more under / overcuts, the strategies will probably be more diverse in terms of when and for what compound to pit and with tires that are supposed to last for shorter stints, the drivers potentially will be able to push more during the race... Simple, effective and fair for all teams


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SmallSoldier
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:So assuming this was applied next season, the first "quali race" will have the Williams/Alfas at the front in some combination with the Mercs (or Hamilton and Max, depending how things go) at the back. At the end of that, the Mercs and Max will be perhaps midfield for the race. Perhaps they can make it to the front in the race but perhaps not. The at the next event, it'll likely be the Williams / Alfas at the front, the Mercs/Max a bit further forward. And then in the race, they'll be a bit closer to the front for the race. Perhaps they'll get there this time . Then they'll be leading the title race and so we'll go back to the first event's quali race positions, with the midfield runners in a varied order from the first time. Repeat with someone else starting at the back the next time, before the Mercs/Max are there again. In the end, it'll just come down to which races are in which order as to who ends up winning the title.

It's about as contrived a system as one might want. We'll end up with a load of race winners who basically luck in to it - a bit like Gasly in Monza. Not sure F1 should be about who lucks in to race wins. May as well all just roll dice to see what points they get each week.

Alternatively, we'll end up with a Hamilton-through-the GP2-field-in-Turkey style race each week featuring Lewis and Max against the rest. Which might be fun but will doubtless end up with people complaining "we just see Hamilton and Max overtaking people all the time and it's boring". :roll:
Good point, I can also see them using more engines than necessary and taking penalties in those races where they want to finish at the back in order to maximize their next result


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JordanMugen
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:31 pm
Probably a bit more sophisticated than that- you'll get Merc and RBR modelling the season for optimum points overall and aiming to finish in a variety of positions in different races rather then trying to banzai it to the front every time as it's not best for the long game- like it might be much more advantageous to finish 7th somewhere in order to set up the next couple of races etc. So you could get people squabbling over random places and driving deliberately slowly/letting cars past to get into that place. Could be farcical, could be dangerous, would probably be a giant mess.
:?:

They would start the qualifying race in the reverse of championship order not the reverse of the previous race result. There is no advantage to scoring less championship points than possible!

SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:41 pm
Good point, I can also see them using more engines than necessary and taking penalties in those races where they want to finish at the back in order to maximize their next result
Finishing at the back in the Grand Prix would just mean you score no points. It has no advantage to your starting position for the next qualifying race, unless you like being further behind in the WDC and WCC!

SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:01 pm
In addition, the problem is that it has been demonstrated that is very hard to make an overtake in F1 with the current cars
Then the drivers should drive better. :wink:

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proteus
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Give drivers cars, tyres and freedom to push right from the start to the finish. No reverse grids, no artificial overtake aids and no limitations.

Ditch the overcomplexed and overpriced hybrid power units - if manufacturers dont like it, send them away and tell them goodbye. Bring back Cosworth, they can equip majority of teams, like they did back in old days. Simplify and restrict aero, make cars shorter and more agile. Bring back the tyre war. Bring back refueling. Remove tarmac runoffs which are only rewarding drivers with second chances, instead of punishing them for their mistakes. Ban antistall. Ban pitwall eye control over parameters of the car (except for brakes and tyres). Simplify driver inputs on steering wheel (retain only brake bias, fuel consumption and radio). Let them have only three engine modes: lean, normal and rich.

This is how F1 more or less used to look like, and it was at its peak in that time. If we have to introduce reverse grids and other funny stuff, than there is a big problem in the sport. Nobody is denying that safety progress needs to be a priority, but some crudeness needs to be ratained if we want to have a pure and competitive sport without being predictable.

Listening to radios between the driver and his engineer for those final fastest laps is just unbeliveable. The whole lap the driver is forced to flick different switches and engine modes, go trough several "scenarios" and settings...it just went too far. And those fastest laps only show how slowly they are actually "racing" majority of the event. What we have is a budget formula, where money actually isnt saved at all.
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browney
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Everything is a gimmick until they reduce the aero.... I could t believe how silly they were when they made the 2017 rules.

Track position is everything, which produces the predictable one stop races and tyre managing.

I'm not sure if reducing the wake will be enough, because with all the downforce they have the braking distances are still very small. Hopefully there will also be less downforce overall.

Look at the F3 races on the same track....

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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browney wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:33 pm
Everything is a gimmick until they reduce the aero.... I could t believe how silly they were when they made the 2017 rules.

Track position is everything, which produces the predictable one stop races and tyre managing.

I'm not sure if reducing the wake will be enough, because with all the downforce they have the braking distances are still very small. Hopefully there will also be less downforce overall.

Look at the F3 races on the same track....
I often mention revising the blue flag rules ( and usually get 'told off) which would mean the car would have to be capable of running in bad air, and fighting wheel to wheel.

If (say) merc knew they could only run away until the caught back up with the field, they would have to set up (and design) the car to work as a racing car, not a get away vehicle.
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Diesel
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Maybe... just maybe it could work, IF they awarded points for every place gained during the reverse grid sprint. For example, Hamilton might start at the back as the current WDC leader, but in "qualifying" he gains 10 places so is awarded 10 points and starts the race in 10th position. If he wins the race he nets 35 points for the whole weekend. At least then you are rewarding overtaking, rather than trying to artificially handicap the better cars and drivers.

EDIT: Although it does mean you'll get a WDC who probably didn't win the most races... might need to think about how many points are awarded during qualifying, perhaps a cap or 1 point per 2 positions or something.

EDIT2: The thing is, as a fan, I want to see what an F1 car can do in qualifying trim, I want to see a balls out absolutely nothing held back lap. Senna's qualifying laps are legendary...
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP