2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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maxxer
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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If I was mercedes I would say we don't need friday practice to prevent others from catching up.
Oh guess they did do that :
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... h/4889835/

tangodjango
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:19 pm
grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 am
People say the merc is so dominant granny can win the WDC then they say Max scalps Bottas easily signifying that the car is not dominant.
It is very dominant. Bottas from obscurity became a title contender, a serial winner, serial pole setter, WDC runner up and is currently set for runners up this year too.

This car has made 3 drivers serial winners, title contenders, serial pole setters, and 2 of them world champions. It took Ferrari to bend rules to interrupt clean 1-2 in 2017-2018

When Vettel won in RBR his titles were ridiculed for having the fastest car and said anyone could win in it. When it was pointed out that Webber did not once finish runner up to any of his 4 titles, people said Webber was a rubbish driver.

When Hamilton is winning the narrative his fans try to peddle the narrative week in week out that the car is not dominant when we are seeing quali laps 1 second faster than their nearest rivals.

In 2014 Mercedes won 16/19 races same in 2015
In 2016 won 19/21 races
2017 took 12/20
2018 took 11/20
2019 took 15/21
2020 so far 9/11

Compare this to RBR of which people said was a dominant car:

2010: 9/19
2011: 12/19
2012: 7/20
2013: 13/19 (Peak of dominance)

Statistics do not have opinions, they do not have favorites, where as people do. From your statement I can deduce you are a Lewis fan.

If RBR was dominant with these statistics why is Mercedes with even better statistics not? By your logic Bottas being scalped by Max as the indicator to Mercedes not being dominant, then Webber was sculpt many, many times so RBR was not dominant.

If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.

My point is, there is nothing wrong with Hamilton or Bottas being in a dominant car they are not the first to be in one nor will they be the last to be in one. A win is a win why then defend a win that is already won? There is no provision by the FIA when a driver wins in a dominant car that says "WDC but in a dominant car" it's just WDC.

At least be fair in your claims. Hamilton will be a 7 times champion this year and there is no shame in being in the fastest car many others have done it in the fastest car, he is not the only one to do it.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Bottas came from obscurity and became a serial winner. He was pretty highly thought of from when he entered the sport and it was absolutely not a bolt from the blue when he got the Mercedes drive. He'd done a very good job at Williams and was a 27(ish) year old up and coming driver at the time with an unknown ceiling. I'd dispute the serial winner bit as well. (9 wins from 73 in the Mercedes?) It's hardly the correct narrative that a total unknown/journeyman was plonked in the car and is now smashing everything out of the park. However, he's probably not delivered as much has he should have done since joining the team, but he IS up against one of the best drivers of all time. I think he's used as a barometer by both people who like and dislike Hamilton in attempt to either validate or disprove claims about Hamilton's abilities. People will believe what they choose to believe, either way, rightly or wrongly. It's a subjective argument which will never be resolved!

However, you are completely right that the Merc is the best car on the grid, and has been since 2014 so it's only natural the strongest Merc driver has won the title each year. This has almost always been the case in F1 as you say. In fact 2008 is probably the last time a driver not in the best car won the title or in 1991 (is there an argument for 2007?) but otherwise you're going at least back to the 80s if not even further. You are also right that saying 'he's got the best car' (that can be either fastest or most reliable) is something you then have to apply to basically every champion who has ever raced. It's not a stick to just beat Hamilton with. If you apply an asterisk to him, you have to apply the same asterisk to Vettel, Schumacher, Prost, Senna and all of them.

In the end, the numbers are all objective but how people choose to interpret or caveat them is all subjective.
The person saying Bottas came from obscurity is of course a Hamilton hater and a massive "supporter" of the Ferrari second driver, such accusations have to be thrown about and false information paraded before the legacy of the youngest 4 time WDC falls even below Piquet as by far the most underwhelming multiple(3+) WDC in history. Bottas was as highly rated as Ricciardo post 2014 and beat Ricciardo in a spec series before F1 and was thought of as a future world champion by many.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/22058 ... -and-rated
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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tangodjango wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:32 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:19 pm
grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm


It is very dominant. Bottas from obscurity became a title contender, a serial winner, serial pole setter, WDC runner up and is currently set for runners up this year too.

This car has made 3 drivers serial winners, title contenders, serial pole setters, and 2 of them world champions. It took Ferrari to bend rules to interrupt clean 1-2 in 2017-2018

When Vettel won in RBR his titles were ridiculed for having the fastest car and said anyone could win in it. When it was pointed out that Webber did not once finish runner up to any of his 4 titles, people said Webber was a rubbish driver.

When Hamilton is winning the narrative his fans try to peddle the narrative week in week out that the car is not dominant when we are seeing quali laps 1 second faster than their nearest rivals.

In 2014 Mercedes won 16/19 races same in 2015
In 2016 won 19/21 races
2017 took 12/20
2018 took 11/20
2019 took 15/21
2020 so far 9/11

Compare this to RBR of which people said was a dominant car:

2010: 9/19
2011: 12/19
2012: 7/20
2013: 13/19 (Peak of dominance)

Statistics do not have opinions, they do not have favorites, where as people do. From your statement I can deduce you are a Lewis fan.

If RBR was dominant with these statistics why is Mercedes with even better statistics not? By your logic Bottas being scalped by Max as the indicator to Mercedes not being dominant, then Webber was sculpt many, many times so RBR was not dominant.

If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.

My point is, there is nothing wrong with Hamilton or Bottas being in a dominant car they are not the first to be in one nor will they be the last to be in one. A win is a win why then defend a win that is already won? There is no provision by the FIA when a driver wins in a dominant car that says "WDC but in a dominant car" it's just WDC.

At least be fair in your claims. Hamilton will be a 7 times champion this year and there is no shame in being in the fastest car many others have done it in the fastest car, he is not the only one to do it.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Bottas came from obscurity and became a serial winner. He was pretty highly thought of from when he entered the sport and it was absolutely not a bolt from the blue when he got the Mercedes drive. He'd done a very good job at Williams and was a 27(ish) year old up and coming driver at the time with an unknown ceiling. I'd dispute the serial winner bit as well. (9 wins from 73 in the Mercedes?) It's hardly the correct narrative that a total unknown/journeyman was plonked in the car and is now smashing everything out of the park. However, he's probably not delivered as much has he should have done since joining the team, but he IS up against one of the best drivers of all time. I think he's used as a barometer by both people who like and dislike Hamilton in attempt to either validate or disprove claims about Hamilton's abilities. People will believe what they choose to believe, either way, rightly or wrongly. It's a subjective argument which will never be resolved!

However, you are completely right that the Merc is the best car on the grid, and has been since 2014 so it's only natural the strongest Merc driver has won the title each year. This has almost always been the case in F1 as you say. In fact 2008 is probably the last time a driver not in the best car won the title or in 1991 (is there an argument for 2007?) but otherwise you're going at least back to the 80s if not even further. You are also right that saying 'he's got the best car' (that can be either fastest or most reliable) is something you then have to apply to basically every champion who has ever raced. It's not a stick to just beat Hamilton with. If you apply an asterisk to him, you have to apply the same asterisk to Vettel, Schumacher, Prost, Senna and all of them.

In the end, the numbers are all objective but how people choose to interpret or caveat them is all subjective.
The person saying Bottas came from obscurity is of course a Hamilton hater and a massive "supporter" of the Ferrari second driver, such accusations have to be thrown about and false information paraded before the legacy of the youngest 4 time WDC falls even below Piquet as by far the most underwhelming multiple(3+) WDC in history. Bottas was as highly rated as Ricciardo post 2014 and beat Ricciardo in a spec series before F1 and was thought of as a future world champion by many.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/22058 ... -and-rated
That's definitely the thing! I think it's so hard to find anyone that either consciously or subconsciously doesn't have an agenda or point of view tilted in one way or another. Which on one hand is frustrating but on the other hand will always give us plenty to talk about and debate, even if there will never be a resolution :)

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Still rise!!! Even against FIA's attempts to undercut him. Makes it sweeter.

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Sieper wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:28 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:17 pm


I'm not so sure about that. I can name you two drivers at least against whom Bottas surely would not be in the fight all year either. Them being Max and Leclerc. Like I said, at least.
Ok, fair call, but they have booth made mistakes. If it would be enough I can not say
Max Made one mistake this year and his team saved him on the grid. Lewis also had his share of self inflicted problems. Started in qualy for the first race, speeding under Yellow. Causing a collision with Albon in the race. Monza entering a closed pitlane, sotchi track limits On first hot lap in Q2 qualy and then bad luck with vettel loosing him the prime starting tire in and then making test starts where you can’t do that before the race. Just from head.

I am sure none of these are his own mistakes, all the evil FIA trying to subdue are righteous warrior but if you say Max made mistakes (Plural) it is fair to say Lewis had some “situations” and still he is (rightfully and on merit) miles ahead of Bottas. So would be Max and yes leclerc as well. Leclerc actually did have multiple mistakes. But he probably is trying to hard now his car is not as quick anymore.
Stuff you listed as Hamilton "errors" are hilarious. Biased much? :) For example, Albon literally did the very same thing in this weekend. :D Albon does think pass is over 5 seconds before it is over. :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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hUirEYExbN wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:08 am
Racer X wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:04 am
Important question... Do we retire the 2mm joke along with Albons dreams of ever winning a Grand Prix? Or do we continue to use the 2mm joke and have some faith for Albon?
Memes are cancer, half this thread before the race was just people forcing 2 mm into everything. Albon is not cancer, but he is dragging RB further back than he needs to be. Take them both round back and put them out of our misery.


Done...I feel terrible...
RedBull Racing MAX//PEREZ

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:59 pm
Sieper wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:28 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:23 pm


Ok, fair call, but they have booth made mistakes. If it would be enough I can not say
Max Made one mistake this year and his team saved him on the grid. Lewis also had his share of self inflicted problems. Started in qualy for the first race, speeding under Yellow. Causing a collision with Albon in the race. Monza entering a closed pitlane, sotchi track limits On first hot lap in Q2 qualy and then bad luck with vettel loosing him the prime starting tire in and then making test starts where you can’t do that before the race. Just from head.

I am sure none of these are his own mistakes, all the evil FIA trying to subdue are righteous warrior but if you say Max made mistakes (Plural) it is fair to say Lewis had some “situations” and still he is (rightfully and on merit) miles ahead of Bottas. So would be Max and yes leclerc as well. Leclerc actually did have multiple mistakes. But he probably is trying to hard now his car is not as quick anymore.
Stuff you listed as Hamilton "errors" are hilarious. Biased much? :) For example, Albon literally did the very same thing in this weekend. :D Albon does think pass is over 5 seconds before it is over. :roll: :roll: :roll:
I cannot comprehend a single word you wrote. Albon did something wrong. Lewis thus not. I am biased and hilarious. Ok. Roll roll roll.

Care to explain your point if you have one?
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Phil
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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This was quite a good race. Enjoyed the fight between Hamilton and Bottas. Also, once again, very solid and consistent performance from Verstappen. Very impressed. Didn't think he would continue to consistently bring in the results since more than a year now, but he has really transformed as a driver 1.5 seasons now.

I really hope that next year, RedBull can be a bit closer and that we will have a more straight fight between the Mercedes and RedBull.

Also very good performance from Riccardo, Perez, both McLarens and of course Leclerc.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Phil wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:45 pm
This was quite a good race. Enjoyed the fight between Hamilton and Bottas. Also, once again, very solid and consistent performance from Verstappen. Very impressed. Didn't think he would continue to consistently bring in the results since more than a year now, but he has really transformed as a driver 1.5 seasons now.

I really hope that next year, RedBull can be a bit closer and that we will have a more straight fight between the Mercedes and RedBull.

Also very good performance from Riccardo, Perez, both McLarens and of course Leclerc.
I was pleased to hear Max say its where they would be. He is accepting it, and I don't mean giving up, but not killing the car or tyres looking for an unrealistic performance.
The he is not likely to beat both Merc's in most races, so the sensible thing is to be there when they drop the ball and run in a blinder when he can.

Some races he will have the chance, many he will not and realising that is a very mature step up for him and will stand him in good stead.
Once again, I do not mean he will stop trying, just drive appropriate races and save the engine whenhe can against the time it is needed
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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nzjrs wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:10 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:08 pm
Verstappen worst driver of the race confirmed, as per F1.com live timing

https://i.imgur.com/U1Dm78A.jpg
What is this? One of the new AWS AI bullshit things?
The "AWS AI bullshit" algorithm may have looked at the number of overtakes. It seems to me that Verstappen didn't make any passes at all. Horrible drive! :D

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 am
People say the merc is so dominant granny can win the WDC then they say Max scalps Bottas easily signifying that the car is not dominant.
  • 11/11 poles with front row lockout in all but two qualifyings and an average gap of 0.75 secs to the fastest non-Mercedes-car
  • 9/11 race wins while the lost races were not really for performance reasons when in Britain 2 the issue was the different tyre pressure and in Italy the penalty
If that's not dominance then what is? It's almost harder to not win in the W11 than the other way around.

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm
If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.
I don't think that's correct, as he had lost the undercut when Hamilton and Verstappen pitted under the VSC. The final safety car might have put him back in the fight for P2 though.

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm

In 2014 Mercedes won 16/19 races same in 2015
In 2016 won 19/21 races
2017 took 12/20
2018 took 11/20
2019 took 15/21
2020 so far 9/11

Compare this to RBR of which people said was a dominant car:

2010: 9/19
2011: 12/19
2012: 7/20
2013: 13/19 (Peak of dominance)

Statistics do not have opinions, they do not have favorites, where as people do. From your statement I can deduce you are a Lewis fan.
It's also possible that Red Bull would have been more dominant if they had better drivers. :)
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:31 pm
grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm
If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.
I don't think that's correct, as he had lost the undercut when Hamilton and Verstappen pitted under the VSC. The final safety car might have put him back in the fight for P2 though.
BOT might’ve easily pitted before the SC too. He’d have been in pretty bad shape if that happened.
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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214270 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:47 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:31 pm
grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm
If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.
I don't think that's correct, as he had lost the undercut when Hamilton and Verstappen pitted under the VSC. The final safety car might have put him back in the fight for P2 though.
BOT might’ve easily pitted before the SC too. He’d have been in pretty bad shape if that happened.
Yup, which would have put him on similar tyres to everyone around him, in P4/P3. With the lock up forcing a pit stop, and subsequently missing out on the "free stop" Lewis & Max got under the VSC he was realistically only going to be fighting for P2 at best, the win was lost.