2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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SiLo
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:09 am
SiLo wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:41 pm
Don't understand why they dont just tell lapped cars to drop to the back of the pack and then add a lap on, would be much safer
The timing system can't deal with that, it's been suggested several times in the past and that's always the reason they give.
So update it? It's 2020 not 1995
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:13 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:09 am
SiLo wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:41 pm
Don't understand why they dont just tell lapped cars to drop to the back of the pack and then add a lap on, would be much safer
The timing system can't deal with that, it's been suggested several times in the past and that's always the reason they give.
So update it? It's 2020 not 1995
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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I think they should just drop back to the order they are in, if your a lap down, you are usually there for a reason. Why should they get their lap back?
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nzjrs
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:42 pm
I think they should just drop back to the order they are in, if your a lap down, you are usually there for a reason. Why should they get their lap back?
I think FOM wants to minimize the number of "Mercedes laps half the field twice" type stories.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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nzjrs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:51 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:42 pm
I think they should just drop back to the order they are in, if your a lap down, you are usually there for a reason. Why should they get their lap back?
I think FOM wants to minimize the number of "Mercedes laps half the field twice" type stories.
Yeah sounds about right. Its such a shame when we lose 2 or 3 laps for the annoying lapped cars getting their lap back.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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Why not have all lapped cars enter the pit lane as the 'parade' passes, then release them 20 seconds after the last car on the prime lap passes?
They will then have a delta to maintain position until restart.
Can be done with in 2 laps.
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:06 pm
Why not have all lapped cars enter the pit lane as the 'parade' passes, then release them 20 seconds after the last car on the prime lap passes?
They will then have a delta to maintain position until restart.
Can be done with in 2 laps.
unfair advantage for the competition, the lapped cars will have colder tires.
that's what they'd say i'm sure of it.

indeed i think the best way is to have the lapped cars drop back, then qeue up.
a good programmer would fix any 'lap' issues without a problem.
I don't see the complicated issues either.
then again, what are we really talking about. 2 1/2 minutes, tops?
what's really the big fuss about?
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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Hypothetical situation. Gasly is the last car on the lead lap in P10, just ahead of Hamilton on the track before the safety car was deployed. Norris is in P11, having just been lapped by Hamilton. Now what?

Option 1. Give the lapped cars the equivalent of a blue flag and let them drop back. Now Gasly has lapped Norris, and Norris has no chance at a championship point.

Option 2. Let the lapped cars drop back, but make believe that they actually went all the way around the circuit. Norris is now behind Gasly on the lead lap and can fight for a championship point. This requires the timing system to adjust the lap count for the lapped cars. This could require major modifications to the timing system. And it also gives the lapped cars a potentially unfair advantage in the sense that their tyres will be up to one lap fresher. Gasly's tyres would go off one lap sooner, giving Norris a better chance at that final point.

Maybe I'm not thinking it through correctly, but it seems to me that the current approach is probably as fair as it is going to get.

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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The only real problem when it comes to fairness is that the unlappers can warm up their tires really well whilst the waitees are getting even colder tires. Nowadays that is quite big. One Lap fresher tires seems less big?
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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I'd think they'll also say lapped cars will also end up with less mileage that way, which counts since they have to reuse engines/gearboxes.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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notsofast wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 pm
Hypothetical situation. Gasly is the last car on the lead lap in P10, just ahead of Hamilton on the track before the safety car was deployed. Norris is in P11, having just been lapped by Hamilton. Now what?

Option 1. Give the lapped cars the equivalent of a blue flag and let them drop back. Now Gasly has lapped Norris, and Norris has no chance at a championship point.

Option 2. Let the lapped cars drop back, but make believe that they actually went all the way around the circuit. Norris is now behind Gasly on the lead lap and can fight for a championship point. This requires the timing system to adjust the lap count for the lapped cars. This could require major modifications to the timing system. And it also gives the lapped cars a potentially unfair advantage in the sense that their tyres will be up to one lap fresher. Gasly's tyres would go off one lap sooner, giving Norris a better chance at that final point.

Maybe I'm not thinking it through correctly, but it seems to me that the current approach is probably as fair as it is going to get.
You are correct. The rule was done to add excitement. A lapped car can now fight again for a point.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:14 am
notsofast wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 pm
Hypothetical situation. Gasly is the last car on the lead lap in P10, just ahead of Hamilton on the track before the safety car was deployed. Norris is in P11, having just been lapped by Hamilton. Now what?

Option 1. Give the lapped cars the equivalent of a blue flag and let them drop back. Now Gasly has lapped Norris, and Norris has no chance at a championship point.

Option 2. Let the lapped cars drop back, but make believe that they actually went all the way around the circuit. Norris is now behind Gasly on the lead lap and can fight for a championship point. This requires the timing system to adjust the lap count for the lapped cars. This could require major modifications to the timing system. And it also gives the lapped cars a potentially unfair advantage in the sense that their tyres will be up to one lap fresher. Gasly's tyres would go off one lap sooner, giving Norris a better chance at that final point.

Maybe I'm not thinking it through correctly, but it seems to me that the current approach is probably as fair as it is going to get.
You are correct. The rule was done to add excitement. A lapped car can now fight again for a point.
true, the only problem with it is, by doing so we lose 2 or even 3 laps of racing because of this routine. Therefore taking away more excitement than it gives. As an example, lets say at Imola, 7 laps to go, we have car stuck in the gravel. Out comes the SC. it takes the Marshalls 3 laps of SC speed to clear the car. Now lapped cars may unlap themselves. This takes a whole lap just for the cars to filter through as they are careful where they pass the other car. Then they give them another lap to get round and within reasonable distance to the pack or even back up to the pack. So we lost 5 laps in total now. So with 2 laps of the trace to go, it is restarted , no DRS now for the remainder of the race and unless you have a huge tyre advantage, the race is over at a track like Imola. Therefore the unlapping of car ruined all the excitement.
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:22 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:14 am
notsofast wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 pm
Hypothetical situation. Gasly is the last car on the lead lap in P10, just ahead of Hamilton on the track before the safety car was deployed. Norris is in P11, having just been lapped by Hamilton. Now what?

Option 1. Give the lapped cars the equivalent of a blue flag and let them drop back. Now Gasly has lapped Norris, and Norris has no chance at a championship point.

Option 2. Let the lapped cars drop back, but make believe that they actually went all the way around the circuit. Norris is now behind Gasly on the lead lap and can fight for a championship point. This requires the timing system to adjust the lap count for the lapped cars. This could require major modifications to the timing system. And it also gives the lapped cars a potentially unfair advantage in the sense that their tyres will be up to one lap fresher. Gasly's tyres would go off one lap sooner, giving Norris a better chance at that final point.

Maybe I'm not thinking it through correctly, but it seems to me that the current approach is probably as fair as it is going to get.
You are correct. The rule was done to add excitement. A lapped car can now fight again for a point.
true, the only problem with it is, by doing so we lose 2 or even 3 laps of racing because of this routine. Therefore taking away more excitement than it gives. As an example, lets say at Imola, 7 laps to go, we have car stuck in the gravel. Out comes the SC. it takes the Marshalls 3 laps of SC speed to clear the car. Now lapped cars may unlap themselves. This takes a whole lap just for the cars to filter through as they are careful where they pass the other car. Then they give them another lap to get round and within reasonable distance to the pack or even back up to the pack. So we lost 5 laps in total now. So with 2 laps of the trace to go, it is restarted , no DRS now for the remainder of the race and unless you have a huge tyre advantage, the race is over at a track like Imola. Therefore the unlapping of car ruined all the excitement.
Wait a second....you mean excitement is gone?

The unlapping was introduces as a "lex Vettel" for excitement: Some years ago a RedBull was build to secure a gap on the initial laps of the race to break DRS and drive the race home. This car was only really vulnerable on SC restarts. As lapped cars helped to keep a gap at the SC restart, the rule of the unlapping was introduced to get the strong drivers at this time like Alonso or Button into DRS range after the SC.

If you want excitement they need to cure the root cause, not such things as SC restarts...

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SiLo
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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notsofast wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 pm
Hypothetical situation. Gasly is the last car on the lead lap in P10, just ahead of Hamilton on the track before the safety car was deployed. Norris is in P11, having just been lapped by Hamilton. Now what?

Option 1. Give the lapped cars the equivalent of a blue flag and let them drop back. Now Gasly has lapped Norris, and Norris has no chance at a championship point.

Option 2. Let the lapped cars drop back, but make believe that they actually went all the way around the circuit. Norris is now behind Gasly on the lead lap and can fight for a championship point. This requires the timing system to adjust the lap count for the lapped cars. This could require major modifications to the timing system. And it also gives the lapped cars a potentially unfair advantage in the sense that their tyres will be up to one lap fresher. Gasly's tyres would go off one lap sooner, giving Norris a better chance at that final point.

Maybe I'm not thinking it through correctly, but it seems to me that the current approach is probably as fair as it is going to get.
Isnt this ignoring that Gasly would be at the back of the train here? The safety car would pick up Hamilton as the leader, if Gasly was in front he would be let go already and drive around to the back of the pack, then the lapped cars drop in behind and suddenly Norris is behind Gasly and on the same lap.
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Phil
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Re: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Oct 31 - Nov 01

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Isn't this whole discussion about unlapping a bit moot? The goal of a GP is to do the mileage. If you don't unlap the cars and simply add some fancy math, they will not have done the mileage when they cross the line. I think part of the achievement of a GP is doing the entire mileage, not cutting them short by a lap.
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