2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

[Just_a_fan]

It's like people forget that the world champion, 95% of the time has the best car that year.

Since the inception of WCC in 1958 there have been just 10 occasions when the WDC individual didn't drive for the WCC team. That’s 16%. Decade by decade the occasions are:
50s 1
60s 0
70s. 2
80s 4
90s 2
00s. 1
10s. 0

So you’re right if you only look at this century.

The 1980s were a strange time. 1981 was one of those where a big disparity in team mates hampered the team's WCC chances.1982 was the big one, of course, with the two prime Ferrari drivers both failing to finish the season. 1983 was another case of one driver being much better than the other. If Patrese had been anywhere near as good (or as lucky?) as Piquet, Brabham would have taken the WCC. 1986 was a good under-the-radar drive by Prost, the Williams being the better car but their drivers fought each other, and Prost did benefit from that famous bit of Mansell bad luck in the final race in Australia.

1980 - Jones won with Williams

**1981 - Piquet won but Williams won the WCC. Piquet's team mate was pretty useless - he only finished 5 races and didn't even qualify in one race.

**1982 was weird/sad - Rosberg won the WDC but Ferrari the WCC. Both Ferrari and Williams had four drivers that season, with Villeneuve dying mid season and Pironi fracturing his legs in a crash. Rosberg kind of lucked in to it a bit.

**1983 - Piquet won again and his team mate (Patrese) was back in 9th having only finishing 5 races all season. Ferrari's drivers finished 3rd and 4th, hence Ferrari took the WCC. Piquet's Brabham was probably the best car with that BMW turbo engine, but only he made the most of it.

1984 - Lauda and McLaren took the titles

1985 - Prost and McLaren

**1986 - Prost took the title with Williams taking the WCC. Again we see the title winning driver having a team mate who didn't score heavily. Mansell and Piquet took chunks out of each other allowing Prost to sneak through (thanks to cruel luck in the last race for Mansell). All a bit 2007 in some ways.

1987 - Piquet and Williams taking the spoils.

1988 - Senna and McLaren

1989 - Prost and McLaren

The 90's were of course one year where Williams won the WCC but not the WDC but they had a terrible start to the year and Hill wasn't a natural team leader in the months after Senna's death. And then in 1999, Ferrari would likely have had the WDC and WCC had Schumacher not missed several races with a broken leg Mika suffered from several retirements and Irvine probably didn't score as highly as Schumacher would have - certainly Salo coming 3rd in Italy to Irvine's 6th would make you think that Michael would have been 3rd or better there which, in Irvine's shoes, would have been enough for the title.

One thing I think looking back does show is that the reliability of the modern car is amazing - Hamilton's only had 8 retirements during his tenure at Mercedes, and three of those were in one season. He hasn't had a retirement since round 9 in 2018. That's just phenomenal and would have a made a huge difference to many a driver and team title result back in the day.

[Edax]

It's like people forget that the world champion, 95% of the time has the best car that year.

It’s bizarre. Look, I agree with what VET said yesterday: Hamilton is the greatest of this generation. That’s huge praise coming from a 4x WDC who knows what he’s talking about. VET said while Schumacher remains his emotional hero, Hamilton’s on-track achievements make him the best.

On a side note, VET had a hilarious way of tackling the question of comparing drivers from different eras. VET said it’s impossible to pick one or the other between HAM and Fangio, for example.

Why? As VET said, this generation could be crapping their pants driving those old machines, and the old generation may have been crapping their pants in 2020 cars because they don’t have the athleticism and physicality to deal with the speed of today’s machines.

I love VET’s brutal honesty.

It is very true though. Most of the drivers today have walked away from accidents that were unsurvivable in pre 70’s car. Current F1 rewards those who take risks, old F1 rewarded those who stayed alive.

On the flip side, Fangio could drive with a steering wheel in one hand and an oil tin in the other. But would he be able to drive 300km/hr+ while adjusting the brake settings engine mapping and kers deployment and keeping an eye on the tire temperatures?

Different era. I don’t think one should even try to make a comparison. Not to belittle Hamilton, he is absolutely the greatest today, and one of the greatest ever, but let’s just leave it at that.

[NathanOlder]

Looking at this season, I put Bottas ahead of

Grosjean, Kmag, Giovinazzi, Kimi, Kvyat, Ocon, Vettel, Albon, Latifi, Stroll

That puts him inside the top 10 and right now I feel he would hold his own against Norris, Gasly, Russell and Sainz.
So Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Perez are the only drivers I would say are stronger than Bottas.

I wouldn't put him ahead of Räikkönen. He had some outstanding drives with a clearly lackluster car.

And thats why he's scored 4 points and is level with Giovinazzi?

[mzso]

And thats why he's scored 4 points and is level with Giovinazzi?

FFS. Points are not everything. Especially in the back of the field. Where if you're lucky you get some, otherwise you don't. Last year Alfa was a lot more competitive. And the points paint a lot different picture.

[dans79]

And thats why he's scored 4 points and is level with Giovinazzi?

FFS. Points are not everything. Especially in the back of the field. Where if you're lucky you get some, otherwise you don't. Last year Alfa was a lot more competitive. And the points paint a lot different picture.

The last time I checked, WDC points are the primary way of comparing drivers!

[Moore77]

Looking at this season, I put Bottas ahead of

Grosjean, Kmag, Giovinazzi, Kimi, Kvyat, Ocon, Vettel, Albon, Latifi, Stroll

That puts him inside the top 10 and right now I feel he would hold his own against Norris, Gasly, Russell and Sainz.
So Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Perez are the only drivers I would say are stronger than Bottas.

I wouldn't put him ahead of Räikkönen. He had some outstanding drives with a clearly lackluster car.

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

[zibby43]

Bottas’ steering rack was damaged to the point he didn’t have full lock, which prevented him from being able to correct slides.

Did you actually take a moment to research what damage actually occurred before making your grand couch proclamations?

You're not contradicting anything I said. You're style is amusing when it seems like you didn't even read my whole comment.

I know I'm not contradicting you. I didn't have to.

You contradicted yourself. Put another way . . . Q: Who else had 6 spins? A: Nobody else that didn't have broken steering racks.

Furthermore, you didn't reference the damage you were referring to. He had a broken end plate, end plate stuck in the bodywork, and a damaged steering rack.

The first 2 types of damage probably didn't help the front end or balance, but the final bit (steering) was terminal in terms of car control in those conditions. It was Bottas' fault that he had the damage, but it wasn't 6 subsequent unforced mistakes that he made. It's the inability to catch the slide at that point because you need your steering more than ever at that point.

[zibby43]

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

Too bad there's no way to judge Bottas' pace outside the scope of the W11.

Too bad that's the only car he's ever driven in his racing career.

Aside from that significant oversight, what you're saying is, that the 7x WDC and WCC champions (i.e., Mercedes) are complete idiots.

You're saying that they have no ability to evaluate talent. And despite having the ability to sign anyone they want, they are deliberately sticking with the "worst driver on the grid." Maybe you should phone up Merc and let them know.

"But, but . . . they don't want to rankle Hamilton." That's fine. I still don't see them beating down the doors of Kvyat, Giovinazzi or any of these other soon-to-be unemployed drivers' doors.

[ringo]

Looking at this season, I put Bottas ahead of

Grosjean, Kmag, Giovinazzi, Kimi, Kvyat, Ocon, Vettel, Albon, Latifi, Stroll

That puts him inside the top 10 and right now I feel he would hold his own against Norris, Gasly, Russell and Sainz.
So Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Perez are the only drivers I would say are stronger than Bottas.

I wouldn't put him ahead of Räikkönen. He had some outstanding drives with a clearly lackluster car.

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

Bottas has Hamilton as a teammate. It's harder for him to get on pole than any other driver on the grid. Bottas is heavily underrated. I watch how the drivers operate and control the car. Bottas has very good car control. He also has very good speed. The only thing he is lacking is aggression and tyre management.
He hasn't figured out how to get pole and set up the car for the race. He tries too hard for pole and falls back in the race with tyre deg. But by no means is he a bad driver.
I am not sure what you are seeing with Bottas. I would like to see in 2 years him leave Mercedes and team up with Max or another highly rated driver. Some may be surprised how good he is.

[Racer X]

Is everyone still mad about Hamilton. Wow... If it was a German driver there would be no debate. Even if that German driver had Traction Control in each of his winning cars. Because that's what was banned on the Ferrari after Schumacher stopped winning Championships. Also the blown diffuser on Vettels car was essentially Traction Control. Why isn't that part of the discussion when mentioning their multiple Championships?

[Moore77]

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

Too bad there's no way to judge Bottas' pace outside the scope of the W11.

Too bad that's the only car he's ever driven in his racing career.

Aside from that significant oversight, what you're saying is, that the 7x WDC and WCC champions (i.e., Mercedes) are complete idiots.

You're saying that they have no ability to evaluate talent. And despite having the ability to sign anyone they want, they are deliberately sticking with the "worst driver on the grid." Maybe you should phone up Merc and let them know.

"But, but . . . they don't want to rankle Hamilton." That's fine. I still don't see them beating down the doors of Kvyat, Giovinazzi or any of these other soon-to-be unemployed drivers' doors.

Give a bit of rest zibby, you are much better than these kind of posts. Besides, don't make those wild thoughts as mine by quoting that I think 7x WDC and WCC champions as idiots. I never said anything remotely to that extent. Mercedes know where Bottas stands and they are happy with it as they don't want anyone creating intra-team headaches for them. If I were Toto, I would do exactly the same. So, stop making this as about opinionating about Mercedes. Every team would want a sound No. 1 and a good side kick, to have a painless season of winning both championships and Bottas is a good fit in that scheme of things. Me being a free internet forum arm chair expert, have certain opinions, which Mercedes doesn't have hear or care.

[Moore77]

I wouldn't put him ahead of Räikkönen. He had some outstanding drives with a clearly lackluster car.

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

Bottas has Hamilton as a teammate. It's harder for him to get on pole than any other driver on the grid. Bottas is heavily underrated. I watch how the drivers operate and control the car. Bottas has very good car control. He also has very good speed. The only thing he is lacking is aggression and tyre management.
He hasn't figured out how to get pole and set up the car for the race. He tries too hard for pole and falls back in the race with tyre deg. But by no means is he a bad driver.
I am not sure what you are seeing with Bottas. I would like to see in 2 years him leave Mercedes and team up with Max or another highly rated driver. Some may be surprised how good he is.

Oh I bet, it would end his career instantly. People already called for Gasly's head and got it and now they are baying for Albon's blood.

[Restomaniac]

If only the community at large was as pragmatic about it as Vettel seems to be. But it's a difficult as for some and they like to have the last word. And so it goes and so it goes and so it goes.

Yep.

I’ll say it again. Some of those same people will then wax lyrical in future years over him when he’s no longer racing. They seem to be unable to actually enjoy the obvious next level skill when it’s actually happening and would rather just throw hand grenades.

[NathanOlder]

Looking at this season, I put Bottas ahead of

Grosjean, Kmag, Giovinazzi, Kimi, Kvyat, Ocon, Vettel, Albon, Latifi, Stroll

That puts him inside the top 10 and right now I feel he would hold his own against Norris, Gasly, Russell and Sainz.
So Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Perez are the only drivers I would say are stronger than Bottas.

I wouldn't put him ahead of Räikkönen. He had some outstanding drives with a clearly lackluster car.

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

The amount of brain farts ? Please reel off all these moments please. I will be waiting for this long long reply. Looking at Bottas this season, his Monza race was poor. In Turkey he messed up on lap 1 and damaged his car. The only other times he was beaten by another car was Hungary where it was wet at the start where he made a bad start and dropped to 7th and recovered to 3rd on a track thats known for hard overtaking. Also Spain again he lost places at the start and was 5th at one point. He recovered to 3rd again. Germany he had PU problems and retired. The rest of his results were 1 place behind Lewis (remember Lewis being statistically the best driver ever so finishing behind him is most likely for any driver) So I'm struggling to see all these moments you are claiming happened.

Gasly proved in Monza he had the best car ? what the hell? at no point was the Alpha Tauri the best car in Monza. Gasly was possibly the luckiest driver, but never was it the best car, and thats what you said. The best car was hit with a huge penalty for breaking the rules that day.

[mzso]

And thats why he's scored 4 points and is level with Giovinazzi?

FFS. Points are not everything. Especially in the back of the field. Where if you're lucky you get some, otherwise you don't. Last year Alfa was a lot more competitive. And the points paint a lot different picture.

The last time I checked, WDC points are the primary way of comparing drivers!

For calculating championship results.