2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Mchamilton
Mchamilton
12
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:16 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:40 pm
Mogster wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:52 pm
A bad run of DNFs for Hamilton and Bottas driving well to capitalise and he could be WDC. It could happen.

Lewis has only had 1 DNF since 2016 when Rosberg beat him... Max has had 3 DNFs so far this year.
Exactly.

Hamilton's only had 22 DNFs in his whole F1 career(*) and, as you say, only one since 2016 hence why he has the record for consecutive finishes at 47 and previously held the record with 33. Those records are consecutive - he's had 1 DNF in 81 races. Anyone wanting to luck in on beating him by having fewer DNFs than him is going to need to sacrifice a whole bedroom full of virgins to the gods!

Maybe 2022 will change his luck as the cars will be a new concept and thus more prone to reliability issues, although the cars in general are pretty reliable mechanically these days.


(* interestingly, Schumacher had 14 DNFs just in his 3 years with Mercedes. Rosberg had 7 DNFs in the same period. Some of Michael's DNFs were reliability but he also seemed to have a fair number of collision DNFs too. In their time together at Mercedes, Rosberg had 6 DNFs and Hamilton had 7 DNFs, one each of those being the infamous Spanish collision of course.)
and sadly for lewis' stats, a decent amount of those retirements have been from the lead

User avatar
ringo
260
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

piast9 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:06 pm
I disagree. Here is the comparison of HAM points vs his teammate points in each season he spent at Mercedes. I've also calculated how many points his teammate got in relation to HAM points:
year | HAM | mate | percent
------------------------
2013 | 189 | 171  | 90,5%
2014 | 384 | 317  | 82,6%
2015 | 381 | 322  | 84,5%
2016 | 380 | 385  | 101,3%
2017 | 363 | 305  | 84,0%
2018 | 408 | 247  | 60,5%
2019 | 413 | 326  | 78,9%
2020 | 307 | 197  | 64,2%
From that point of view the worst Rosberg's season was comparable with the best Bottas' season, which was his first at Mercedes. Rosberg was pretty much always closer to beating Hamilton than Botas. It was not just a luck that Rosberg managed what seems pretty imposiible for Botas.
Not good statistics. The other cars got more competitive after 2016. The ferrari and renault engines saw big improvements. When P-2 is not guaranteed because of closer competition, then you get the % that Bottas has.

Anyhow, i would like to remember this discussion in 2022 when Bottas goes to Ferrari, or Aston Martin, or whever Max ends up. I am very confident that Bottas will be a big problem for those "top drivers" in terms of speed and race craft; also temperament. Bottas is not one to be flustered easily unlike some of these top guys.
An interesting line up would be Bottas vs Ricciardo.
For Sure!!

User avatar
Mogster
1
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

ringo wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:32 pm
piast9 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:06 pm
I disagree. Here is the comparison of HAM points vs his teammate points in each season he spent at Mercedes. I've also calculated how many points his teammate got in relation to HAM points:
year | HAM | mate | percent
------------------------
2013 | 189 | 171  | 90,5%
2014 | 384 | 317  | 82,6%
2015 | 381 | 322  | 84,5%
2016 | 380 | 385  | 101,3%
2017 | 363 | 305  | 84,0%
2018 | 408 | 247  | 60,5%
2019 | 413 | 326  | 78,9%
2020 | 307 | 197  | 64,2%
From that point of view the worst Rosberg's season was comparable with the best Bottas' season, which was his first at Mercedes. Rosberg was pretty much always closer to beating Hamilton than Botas. It was not just a luck that Rosberg managed what seems pretty imposiible for Botas.
Not good statistics. The other cars got more competitive after 2016. The ferrari and renault engines saw big improvements. When P-2 is not guaranteed because of closer competition, then you get the % that Bottas has.

Anyhow, i would like to remember this discussion in 2022 when Bottas goes to Ferrari, or Aston Martin, or whever Max ends up. I am very confident that Bottas will be a big problem for those "top drivers" in terms of speed and race craft; also temperament. Bottas is not one to be flustered easily unlike some of these top guys.
An interesting line up would be Bottas vs Ricciardo.
Bottas did beat Ricciardo in Euro Formula Renault.

User avatar
NathanOlder
185
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Mogster wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:46 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:32 pm
piast9 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:06 pm
I disagree. Here is the comparison of HAM points vs his teammate points in each season he spent at Mercedes. I've also calculated how many points his teammate got in relation to HAM points:
year | HAM | mate | percent
------------------------
2013 | 189 | 171  | 90,5%
2014 | 384 | 317  | 82,6%
2015 | 381 | 322  | 84,5%
2016 | 380 | 385  | 101,3%
2017 | 363 | 305  | 84,0%
2018 | 408 | 247  | 60,5%
2019 | 413 | 326  | 78,9%
2020 | 307 | 197  | 64,2%
From that point of view the worst Rosberg's season was comparable with the best Bottas' season, which was his first at Mercedes. Rosberg was pretty much always closer to beating Hamilton than Botas. It was not just a luck that Rosberg managed what seems pretty imposiible for Botas.
Indeed, like Ocon beat Max in Euro F3, and Russell beat Norris and Albon in F2. This Mercedes driver lineup is amazingly strong when you look at it in detail :shock:
Not good statistics. The other cars got more competitive after 2016. The ferrari and renault engines saw big improvements. When P-2 is not guaranteed because of closer competition, then you get the % that Bottas has.

Anyhow, i would like to remember this discussion in 2022 when Bottas goes to Ferrari, or Aston Martin, or whever Max ends up. I am very confident that Bottas will be a big problem for those "top drivers" in terms of speed and race craft; also temperament. Bottas is not one to be flustered easily unlike some of these top guys.
An interesting line up would be Bottas vs Ricciardo.
Bottas did beat Ricciardo in Euro Formula Renault.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
76
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Mogster wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:52 pm
A bad run of DNFs for Hamilton and Bottas driving well to capitalise and he could be WDC. It could happen.

Lewis has only had 1 DNF since 2016 when Rosberg beat him... Max has had 3 DNFs so far this year.
2x actually, you're forgetting Spain, where Rosberg ran Hamilton off the track and secured a DNF for both of them. And before you say "yeah but Rosberg didn't score either", it still was an advantage for him because it was another race that Hamilton couldn't make any ground in the WDC.

User avatar
NathanOlder
185
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Diesel wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:34 pm
Mogster wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:52 pm
A bad run of DNFs for Hamilton and Bottas driving well to capitalise and he could be WDC. It could happen.

Lewis has only had 1 DNF since 2016 when Rosberg beat him... Max has had 3 DNFs so far this year.
2x actually, you're forgetting Spain, where Rosberg ran Hamilton off the track and secured a DNF for both of them. And before you say "yeah but Rosberg didn't score either", it still was an advantage for him because it was another race that Hamilton couldn't make any ground in the WDC.
Before he does say yeah but, I will say..... he said "Since 2016" so from 2017 onwards.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

Jolle
Jolle
257
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:40 pm
Mogster wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:52 pm
A bad run of DNFs for Hamilton and Bottas driving well to capitalise and he could be WDC. It could happen.

Lewis has only had 1 DNF since 2016 when Rosberg beat him... Max has had 3 DNFs so far this year.
Exactly.

Hamilton's only had 22 DNFs in his whole F1 career(*) and, as you say, only one since 2016 hence why he has the record for consecutive finishes at 47 and previously held the record with 33. Those records are consecutive - he's had 1 DNF in 81 races. Anyone wanting to luck in on beating him by having fewer DNFs than him is going to need to sacrifice a whole bedroom full of virgins to the gods!

Maybe 2022 will change his luck as the cars will be a new concept and thus more prone to reliability issues, although the cars in general are pretty reliable mechanically these days.


(* interestingly, Schumacher had 14 DNFs just in his 3 years with Mercedes. Rosberg had 7 DNFs in the same period. Some of Michael's DNFs were reliability but he also seemed to have a fair number of collision DNFs too. In their time together at Mercedes, Rosberg had 6 DNFs and Hamilton had 7 DNFs, one each of those being the infamous Spanish collision of course.)
and sadly for lewis' stats, a decent amount of those retirements have been from the lead
Plus, especially in 2014 and 2016 he was very unlucky with some qualifying failures. Even giving him an engine penalty in Belgium ‘16. That DNF at mal was just a sour icing on the cake.

e30ernest
e30ernest
41
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Was this posted already? If so, sorry I missed it. :D


User avatar
Schuttelberg
72
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

e30ernest
e30ernest
41
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
You are right, Max should have won this race. His errors though (mostly impatience IMO) was what caused his issues. Lewis did indeed get an error in lap 1, but he kept his head and as Jolyon said, bided his time. This is where his experience shows IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one was better than the other in totality. However, in this race Lewis was was indeed better than Max.

User avatar
Sieper
158
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Well. This weekend Lewis getting a 10 as report number. qualified 6th, several seconds of the pace in the Q sessions. Took quite some risk at the start (I feel it was a very good move as he stuck it there quite far next to Ricciardo) but If Ricciardo did not veer away in fright at the last second it could have been a crash. It now was a spin for Ocon and Bottas and he also missed turn 9 (lost position to vettel and Verstappen) and ontbraken himself on Vettel and lost position to Albon. That is not a 10 performance in my book. It was a great performance, I feel, but indeed it seems the result determines what the journalists say more then what actually happened.

User avatar
dans79
459
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race.
I don't know about charles, but Max is for sure is still prone to unnecessary and costly mistakes. He should have won the race, but again showed he still can't control his emotions/frustration at key moments. He should have won the race, but he a costly and foreseeable mistake.
181 103 103 7

User avatar
dans79
459
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Sieper wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:32 pm
That is not a 10 performance in my book. It was a great performance, I feel, but indeed it seems the result determines what the journalists say more then what actually happened.
I think The key thing to remember is that they all make mistakes, and the best drivers try to make sure when they do make mistakes they are minor ones. That's what Lewis's off was, a minor mistake. He lost places, but he didn't damage the car or the tires, and it happened early enough in the race that is was easier to recover from.
181 103 103 7

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
533
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
He slightly ran wide on lap 1. It's wet, gotta test the grip somehow. Not sure I would call that something significant.

Max, on the other hand, seemed to be proving a point, but made a mess of race when he had everything to win. Reminded me of Lewis in 2011.
... . almost. there . sTiLl.. WE...RisE. ..

🚀 🏎️ ✊ Soon my people ✊🏎️🚀

User avatar
Moore77
23
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

It appears that, Max wasn't willing to wait for the race to come to him and wanted to force it to come to him, after having a bad start. Whereas Lewis, was just trying to go through the motion and I don't think, in the early part of the race, it would have crossed his mind that he can win. He most likely simply wanted to complete the race and bring home valuable points and win the championship and in that process, he found better rhythm. A similar process was adopted by Vettel and netted a podium. That's youth and experience. They all have driven so many wet races and yet, there is so much of impatience to not see out the whole race before forcing the matters.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.