2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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nzjrs wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:52 pm
If your point is that they will have to be slightly more conservative now then they were before, they sure I agree, it's a question of degree. The best teams will leave the least on the table.

If Mercedes didn't have enough PU life left at the end of season then that's true even if they could change modes freely. It's bad luck for them and I'm sure they won't make the same mistakes next year.

The teams with the most reliability left can run in a higher mode for more time, now as they could before. That was evidently not Mercedes power this race, which is a rare departure from normal service.
I think you've totally missed the original point, the restriction on engine modes during a race harms the racing, it's just 1 less variable we have to help mix things up, it's no different to when they tried to do the race on a single set of tyres. They can't change the engine mode during the race, period. It doesn't matter if they made the right or wrong decision before qualifying, we are not able to see a race unfold where drivers can use different engine modes for different parts of the race, and that harms the race in my view. There are plenty of examples of historic races where engine modes were involved in the end result, just go back through the various battles between the Mercedes and Red Bull teammates throughout the recent years, a lot of that was because 1 driver was using a higher engine mode to attack his teammate.

You're also treating engine reliability as a constant, it's absolutely not, ask Perez about it, his brand new Mercedes going pop halfway through the race is evidence of that. There's no exact measure of "how much reliability is left", it's a measure of risk vs reward, which IMO is best made during the race.

Fortunately, real-life motor racing is quite different from computer games, they don't have an allocated allowance of engine reliability that depletes in a linear fashion based on which engine mode they are using, it's much more nuanced than that.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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If they want to improve the show, they need to go to a cheaper PU (read less complicated) and allow more of them over the season. The engine nursing hurts the show. Same with tires.

Aero and following is one component. Even if the cars follow better, if people are nursing tires and engines, it's still not going to be very good.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Diesel wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:07 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:52 pm
If your point is that they will have to be slightly more conservative now then they were before, they sure I agree, it's a question of degree. The best teams will leave the least on the table.

If Mercedes didn't have enough PU life left at the end of season then that's true even if they could change modes freely. It's bad luck for them and I'm sure they won't make the same mistakes next year.

The teams with the most reliability left can run in a higher mode for more time, now as they could before. That was evidently not Mercedes power this race, which is a rare departure from normal service.
I think you've totally missed the original point, the restriction on engine modes during a race harms the racing, it's just 1 less variable we have to help mix things up, it's no different to when they tried to do the race on a single set of tyres. They can't change the engine mode during the race, period. It doesn't matter if they made the right or wrong decision before qualifying, we are not able to see a race unfold where drivers can use different engine modes for different parts of the race, and that harms the race in my view. There are plenty of examples of historic races where engine modes were involved in the end result, just go back through the various battles between the Mercedes and Red Bull teammates throughout the recent years, a lot of that was because 1 driver was using a higher engine mode to attack his teammate.

You're also treating engine reliability as a constant, it's absolutely not, ask Perez about it, his brand new Mercedes going pop halfway through the race is evidence of that. There's no exact measure of "how much reliability is left", it's a measure of risk vs reward, which IMO is best made during the race.

Fortunately, real-life motor racing is quite different from computer games, they don't have an allocated allowance of engine reliability that depletes in a linear fashion based on which engine mode they are using, it's much more nuanced than that.
I don't play any video games, I'm an engineer.

FWIW I think you missed my point about the time horizon the predictive models of engine reliability operated on changing before and after the mode ban, but otherwise the underlying principle remaining the same. But good luck!

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ispano6
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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What's this nonsense about engine modes? Mercedes merely had MGUK issues from running at over the limit during the season. All power units needed to run a given mileage or you take a penalty and start from the back with a fresh one. Everyone is held to the same restrictions so don't go whining like a poor sport when another team powered by a different PU wins on merit. I would have rather seen Mercedes turn it up all weekend and take the fight to Red bull Honda but they opted to not risk DNFing in the last race to protect Bottas's 2nd place in the championship and save face with not having a works Mercedes blow an engine in the last race. They didn't want a repeat of last year Brazil or something. They already had the drivers and constructors championship bagged and didn't challenge Max in anyway. Don't blame the circuit, Mercedes just didn't bring the fight for the race win.

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Shrieker
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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smellybeard wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:17 pm
Shrieker wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:09 pm
smellybeard wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:59 pm
It's a deliberate foul that leads to a material change in the results. Disqualification shouldn't be ruled out.
Did you watch the replay ?
I'm sure I saw as much of it as you did and believe there is a lot more to it than that.
In sporting terms, it's comparable to Schumacher's swipe on Hill in Adelaide all those years ago. It's a foul and it changed the championship positions.

In other sports, a deliberate and professional breach of the rules like that attracts the harshest penalty.
I'd say your view of the situation is seriously skewed if you found it anything like Adelaide 1994. This coming from a man who went wheel to wheel with Sainz on iracing, and was treated unfairly to put it mildly :lol:
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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Dieter Rencken:

Both Mercedes drivers qualified and finished behind Max Verstappen, who won the race by 15 seconds. However Wolff does not believe Hamilton, who spent the race behind team mate Valtteri Bottas, would have been able to win even if he had been at full strength.

“The answer is no because – of course he wasn’t 100% and that’s always negative – but Red Bull, both cars were simply quicker than us this whole weekend. We never quite got it right.”

Wolff described the result as a “slap on the wrist” for Mercedes.

“Everybody has weaknesses and we weren’t on our ‘A-game’ this weekend,” he said. “That’s simply a fact, and Red Bull won fair and square.

“You can see that also Albon had a very good race. They had a very good race car and it shows that when their car is in the right place, both drivers [can] do really good job. Probably Albon’s pace was quicker than ours at the end so it could have ended even worse for us.”

Hoffman900
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:33 pm
What's this nonsense about engine modes? Mercedes merely had MGUK issues from running at over the limit during the season. All power units needed to run a given mileage or you take a penalty and start from the back with a fresh one. Everyone is held to the same restrictions so don't go whining like a poor sport when another team powered by a different PU wins on merit. I would have rather seen Mercedes turn it up all weekend and take the fight to Red bull Honda but they opted to not risk DNFing in the last race to protect Bottas's 2nd place in the championship and save face with not having a works Mercedes blow an engine in the last race. They didn't want a repeat of last year Brazil or something. They already had the drivers and constructors championship bagged and didn't challenge Max in anyway. Don't blame the circuit, Mercedes just didn't bring the fight for the race win.
I don't think people are discounting that RedBull won on merit, just that in order to make the show more interesting, you can't have some driving around nursing their equipment while others go at it. They can fix the aero following all they want, but if teams are still nursing equipment, it's ultimately going to impact the show negatively.

A cheaper PU would allow teams to have more of them (for the same cost) and thus, could likely go "all out" most of the time. We're at the point that the 24hrs of LeMans, Daytona, 12hrs of Sebring, etc. are almost as "all out" for the entire field compared to a F1 race.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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So with the engines turned down for threat of explosions RedBull had an open goal to win basically. Mercedes could have pulled some tactics there to at least make it hard for them. Boring race.

I wanted a cake-walk and i got a
Cake-walk but not for the team i wanted. Oh well.
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nacho
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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I mean it's what they said, they had to take power off all Mercedes engined cars because of MGU-K "gremlins".

cplchanb
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:12 pm
If they want to improve the show, they need to go to a cheaper PU (read less complicated) and allow more of them over the season. The engine nursing hurts the show. Same with tires.

Aero and following is one component. Even if the cars follow better, if people are nursing tires and engines, it's still not going to be very good.
IMO they can stick with whatever they have right now and just allow for more engines per season. that way they can run at higher modes longer and reduce the r&d required for reliabilty.

The constant irony about forcing people to develop more reliable engines is that the R&D required is a huge sunken cost that will probably outweigh the cost of additional engines

notsofast
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Image

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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notsofast wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:55 am
https://i.imgur.com/rXGhjHf.jpg
Is that from Vettel to LeClerc?
If so that is absolute class.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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How do we know it is real?
Vettel admiting he met the better man?
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ringo
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Puts Leclerc above Riciardo. Take note fanboy rankers. :lol:

Boring race, and I believe mercedes needed Bottas to get the best score possible to protect P-2 and somehow didn't get too creative with the strategy for Hamilton.
Redbull seem to have had more power than normal. Listen to the Q3 lap by Max, the engine seemed more agressive than normal.
For Sure!!

e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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haza wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:22 pm
This made me laugh 😂

LOL Savage!

Bit of a snooze fest this time (Abu Dhabi is generally that) but well done to Red Bull and McLaren! 2020 shaped up to be one of the best seasons IMO. Can't wait for the start of next year!