2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:33 am
On the other hand, we don't know what was tested, so hard to make definitive conclusions on this ;)
Nothing was tested. They all drove with the 2020 C4 and C5 tires and the car from the last race.
Nothing else was allowed. It was just for the "Young Drivers" ahum, to experience an F1 car.

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:53 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:33 am
On the other hand, we don't know what was tested, so hard to make definitive conclusions on this ;)
Nothing was tested. They all drove with the 2020 C4 and C5 tires and the car from the last race.
Nothing else was allowed. It was just for the "Young Drivers" ahum, to experience an F1 car.
Thanks, my bad - still I do suspect fuel loads and so may have been varied? Some drivers maybe put more emphasis on single laps, others on long runs?

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Of course. We know nothing about the relative performance. Only the teams know that.
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:33 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:54 pm
Wouter wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:59 pm
Well, today with the YDT the F1 saison came to an end.
Nyck de Vries who never drove an F1 car was 2th overall today in the W11.
What are they saying? The result is 90% of the car and 10 % of the driver. :wink:
NdeV has some success in his back catalogue. Won titles in junior series and has won races in LMP2 too. Obviously has some talent.

Of course, the real point that you've conveniently forgotten to mention is that he's 1.3s slower than the Mercedes F1 team drivers in the same car at this circuit. :wink:
Still did better than Van Doorne with a full year of experience, though.
Kubica also not too bad, considering the AlfaTauri is a brick. Mick is a bit dissapointing, one would hope he'd beat the Williams with Nissany at least. On the other hand, we don't know what was tested, so hard to make definitive conclusions on this ;)
Mick has been very dissapointing in his first seasons, F2 and Euro F3. His first seasons he finished in or around bottom half of the standings. If not for his name, he would never have been in decent teams for his second season. So for 2021, I'm not expecting him to be any better than his team mate.
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:08 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:33 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:54 pm

NdeV has some success in his back catalogue. Won titles in junior series and has won races in LMP2 too. Obviously has some talent.

Of course, the real point that you've conveniently forgotten to mention is that he's 1.3s slower than the Mercedes F1 team drivers in the same car at this circuit. :wink:
Still did better than Van Doorne with a full year of experience, though.
Kubica also not too bad, considering the AlfaTauri is a brick. Mick is a bit dissapointing, one would hope he'd beat the Williams with Nissany at least. On the other hand, we don't know what was tested, so hard to make definitive conclusions on this ;)
Mick has been very dissapointing in his first seasons, F2 and Euro F3. His first seasons he finished in or around bottom half of the standings. If not for his name, he would never have been in decent teams for his second season. So for 2021, I'm not expecting him to be any better than his team mate.
Yeah, names matter, unfortunately. Glad he did finish top of F2 this year - had he been beaten by one of the other Ferrari juniors yet still selected for the HAAS seat on name rather than merit, it would have been a shame. Especially as Schwartzman was in his first season.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:53 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:33 am
On the other hand, we don't know what was tested, so hard to make definitive conclusions on this ;)
Nothing was tested. They all drove with the 2020 C4 and C5 tires and the car from the last race.
Nothing else was allowed. It was just for the "Young Drivers" ahum, to experience an F1 car.
Not saying they did, but they could still have tested 'things'. For instance the driver could have been given a delta and told to stick to it as close as possible for X laps. They would then have a comparison of driving a car full of fuel and new tyres v a car getting lighter and on worn tyres. Starting with more fuel would reduce his comparative time to others on low fuel loads but allow the team to gather better data on the driver and the car. They may well consider one driver the 'go get it' and the other needed to be in a position the cars they see themselves fighting would be thinking of pitting and re entering.

Or then again he could just have not been quick :mrgreen:
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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I think we often forget that lots of drivers are actually very good. Even the "rubbish, slow, get rim of him" ones are actually hugely quick in real terms. But we're talking of a sport where being rubbish means being an eye blink behind the other guy. Let's all remember that - next time we say "he's a quarter of a second slower so he's rubbish" remember that's the blink of an eye in the real world. These young guys are phenomenal, even the "rubbish" ones.
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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:35 pm
I think we often forget that lots of drivers are actually very good. Even the "rubbish, slow, get rim of him" ones are actually hugely quick in real terms. But we're talking of a sport where being rubbish means being an eye blink behind the other guy. Let's all remember that - next time we say "he's a quarter of a second slower so he's rubbish" remember that's the blink of an eye in the real world. These young guys are phenomenal, even the "rubbish" ones.
I totally agree. I have said it before: If your teammate takes 0.3 seconds longer over a lap of 5500 meters, 5500 meters !!, what is that really ?! Then they are both super fast!

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:35 pm
I think we often forget that lots of drivers are actually very good. Even the "rubbish, slow, get rim of him" ones are actually hugely quick in real terms. But we're talking of a sport where being rubbish means being an eye blink behind the other guy. Let's all remember that - next time we say "he's a quarter of a second slower so he's rubbish" remember that's the blink of an eye in the real world. These young guys are phenomenal, even the "rubbish" ones.
I agree. This is also why F1 is pretty much the pinnacle of motorsport. At the very top there is very little separating the best from the best. Also, needing to maintain that level of performance is amazing in itself. Especially for the older drivers.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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I disagree. The interval of driver tiers tend to be 2.5 tenths per tier. A mediocre to rubbish driver is normally one half a second slower or worse than an elite driver. Even at times 1 second or even 2 seconds slower if we look at old days F1.

That is a very visible gap distance-wise.
The time gap seems of an insrutable scale but it is not. If we compare it to human track and field a long F1 lap is about 100 seconds. This is about the same as an 800m run. The gap between an elite runner and a middle of the pack runner can also be about the same. In fact one can argue that the F1 gaps should be held to a tighter standard becase the driver is not as fatigued and does more or less the same tightly controlled inputs as his rivals at a about 20 fixed points on the track. The runner conversely has no fixed points and has hundreds of muslcles working multiple inputs in a loosely controled environment. He has about 360 steps before he crosses the line and yet the gaps are measured in thousandths the same way.
My point is that yes... Half of a second is a short time but it is indeed a big gap in racing sports because a gap like that means one competitor did a significant number of inputs incorrectly.
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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Rio Olympics 800m final. The best 8 runners in the world. Running is a much more accessible sport and is much less dependent on equipment. This should suggest tighter timing. Winning time 1:42.15, 8th place 1:46.15, surely a much bigger gap than we typically see in F1?

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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NathanE wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:31 am
Rio Olympics 800m final. The best 8 runners in the world. Running is a much more accessible sport and is much less dependent on equipment. This should suggest tighter timing. Winning time 1:42.15, 8th place 1:46.15, surely a much bigger gap than we typically see in F1?
Yeah I agree, The decisions a driver makes in a lap, is far more than a runner makes in a whole 800m race. A running race should always be closer than a motorsport race.
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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NathanE wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:31 am
Rio Olympics 800m final. The best 8 runners in the world. Running is a much more accessible sport and is much less dependent on equipment. This should suggest tighter timing. Winning time 1:42.15, 8th place 1:46.15, surely a much bigger gap than we typically see in F1?
Not exactly a good example.
I wouldn't read it like that exactlty 8). Was speaking of athletes at their peak performance, since we are comparing performance ceilings of the drivers. Those runners will be nursing strains, injuries or doing a bad start or simply are worn down before the finals so u see a lot of that. Only a few of them will still be fit enough to run near peak in the finals.
But my point was that a lot of things can happen within second difference of finishing time between what an elite does, versus a very good athlete versus a journeyman.
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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And with such tiny margins, that's why the best of the best (all 20 drivers are already 'the best' IMO!) who can extract that extra few tenths like Hamilton firstly get the Mercedes drive, and secondly retain it for several years.
It's why the young drivers who are considered extra special talents with potential to be the very best like Verstappen, Leclerc and Russell are usually fast tracked or put on a certain journey toward those top seats from a young age. It's why sadly so many drivers get picked up and put down if they aren't able to make an impact quickly.

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Re: 2020 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina Circuit, Dec 11 - 13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:35 pm
NathanE wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:31 am
Rio Olympics 800m final. The best 8 runners in the world. Running is a much more accessible sport and is much less dependent on equipment. This should suggest tighter timing. Winning time 1:42.15, 8th place 1:46.15, surely a much bigger gap than we typically see in F1?
Not exactly a good example.
I wouldn't read it like that exactlty 8). Was speaking of athletes at their peak performance, since we are comparing performance ceilings of the drivers. Those runners will be nursing strains, injuries or doing a bad start or simply are worn down before the finals so u see a lot of that. Only a few of them will still be fit enough to run near peak in the finals.
But my point was that a lot of things can happen within second difference of finishing time between what an elite does, versus a very good athlete versus a journeyman.
I think you could take the same analogy to f1 drivers, particularly at the end of a season. By Q3 many could also be nursing strains, injuries or doing a bad start or simply are worn down before the "finals".

Given the difference in car performance as well I think it is staggering how close performance is through this field.

On your point about gaps to amateurs I agree though, I was much closer to Lewis's time round spa last time out than I will ever be to David Rudisha :D