New race weekend format 2021

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
notsofast
notsofast
14
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:56 am

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

SQ allows cars that qualify out of position on Friday to regain their normal position, which means that Sunday will be even more of a procession than it is today.

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
76
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Asking here as I can't find the answer in any articles anywhere. How are the starting positions for the sprint qualifying race decided?

EDIT: Nevermind, found the answer here:

Image

So basically, the only change is the racing starts on Saturday, it's then paused overnight and continues on Sunday. This is really no different to if a race was red flagged for an extended period of time.
Last edited by i70q7m7ghw on Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NathanOlder
164
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Diesel wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:09 pm
Asking here as I can't find the answer in any articles anywhere. How are the starting positions for the sprint qualifying race decided?
Qualifying on friday sets the grid for the saturday race. Then the result of the saturday race sets the grid for sundays race.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
76
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Another big downside to this, the Friday qualifying will be broadcast (if at all) during working hours, so many fans will most likely miss the live coverage, and possibly not have a change to watch it on catch up. This feels like a massive downside to me.

User avatar
Schippke
15
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Personally, I would've gone with keeping FP1 and FP2 on Friday; I understand the obsession with trying to make Friday's more appealing, but lets be honest... the greater majority of people work on a Friday so moving the actually qualifying session, which for years has arguably been one the best things of modern F1, is a dumb move.

If you'd have Qualifying and then the Sprint Race, I'd argue you'd MORE than make-up for the lack of attendees for Friday and get a lot more coming to the track on Saturday (and more viewers too). Would also make more sense regarding Parc Ferme... do what you wish on Friday, but the second you role out into Qualifying on Saturday, you're locked in for the rest of the weekend. I guess the counter argument for all of this, is having so much action on Saturday, can very well devalue the Grand Prix itself on the Sunday, which is nothing short of a mass concern.

Where it might become interesting... is when theres a change of weather. EG1: Wet Qualifying on Friday, might mean a more random grid ahead of the Sprint Race (meaning some faster cars might be starting further back and vice versa). EG2: Dry qualifying, but Sprint Race is wet, so could lead to carnage ahead of the Grand Prix and a more muddled-up starting grid. Again, more outlandish scenarios and very rare they may actually occur... but thinking of the what-ifs.

As most have touched on, given the limits on Power Unit usage and milage teams are able to compete with, I think most will run more conservatively for the Sprint Races in order to ensure they start in a decent position for the ACTUAL race that counts... might've been more effective if they didn't introduce the stupid rule change on Engine Modes and what not being locked in for Qualifying and the Race, but that's another story (still pisses me off to this day).

I think F1 should've waited for the 2022 cars to debut to see if that fixes the racing side of things, which lets be honest... is what most people would prefer to see. Have cars that can (hopefully) follow close to each other and allow for overtaking, as well as the potential removal of DRS to make it more pure should it all go as planned. BUT... it is what it is. Maybe if enough fans complain about it and don't like it, they'll abandon the idea... like the ******* stupid Elimination-Style Knockout Qualifying Session in 2016. :roll:

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
50
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Diesel wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:09 pm
Asking here as I can't find the answer in any articles anywhere. How are the starting positions for the sprint qualifying race decided?
They do a Quali session for the "Sprint Qualifying" at friday. Basically the "experimental weekend" looks like this.
  1. Free practice 1
  2. Qualifying for Sprint Qualifying instead of Free Practice 2
  3. Sprint Qualifying (Saturday)
  4. Full Race (Sunday)

User avatar
NathanOlder
164
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Diesel wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:20 pm
Another big downside to this, the Friday qualifying will be broadcast (if at all) during working hours, so many fans will most likely miss the live coverage, and possibly not have a change to watch it on catch up. This feels like a massive downside to me.
Yeah totally agree. I will be able to watch it while at work, but not everyone will be able to do that.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:49 pm


The Saturday Schedule:

Anderson makes a very silly comment: “Gone is the challenge of trying to make the soft tires last for 20 laps”... Isn’t this something that most fans actually dislike? The fact that drivers aren’t going all out and are forced to save tires because it ends up been faster for a race distance? I actually welcome the fact that we might be see the cars driven in anger without concern for saving tires.
It's not just tyres. There's also PU/drive train component life. 20 laps flat out is a considerable increase in PU/drive train wear.

So even if they could do the sprint as a sprint, they probably won't.

What might happen is backmarkers risk running the car in "Q3 mode" for 20 laps and hope to gain a point or two from the sprint race. But even that might not work out, leading to them having issues with PU components later in the season.
You have a good point... But, cars today are more limited by how much they have to save the tires than the PU.

Regardless of, Anderson seem to be sad that the “Nursing the Tires” days might be gone... Can’t stop thinking that he just wants to hate the concept and will find anything (even if ridiculous as this) to bash it.

It’s like people getting mad because the value of FP2 is gone!... Like we cared before this about the “value of FP2”... It’s just nit picking to try and hate the concept as much as possible, even before we have had one weekend with the new format to make anything remotely close to an objective analysis on whether it worked or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
62
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

I like the idea, but this just plays into the hands of teams further pacing themselves through a weekend.

It would be nice to see these cars unchained from time to time, instead they have to save the cars even more.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
772
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:55 pm


Regardless of, Anderson seem to be sad that the “Nursing the Tires” days might be gone... Can’t stop thinking that he just wants to hate the concept and will find anything (even if ridiculous as this) to bash it.

It’s like people getting mad because the value of FP2 is gone!... Like we cared before this about the “value of FP2”... It’s just nit picking to try and hate the concept as much as possible, even before we have had one weekend with the new format to make anything remotely close to an objective analysis on whether it worked or not.
Keeping a set of tyres in good condition whilst keeping a decent pace is a key skill of any halfway decent driver. So the idea that we'll potentially lose that reduces a variable in the race.

I'm not so worried about losing FP2, more that a key part of the weekend will be happening when many/most of the audience won't be able to see it. That just seems a bit silly to me. It'll be great for the people that are able to get to / afford to go to the circuit for the whole weekend. It'll make Fridays a bit more interesting. So that's a plus point for it. But they are a minority.

My main beef with the plan is that it seems to be a solution to a question that no one has asked. No one has said "how can we make qualifying for the race more interesting?" have they? The current qualifying scenario seems to be fairly universally liked.

It feels like a repeat of the tyre debate a few years ago. There was a race where lots of tyre changes were required and it was an exciting race (was it Button's Canada win?). Suddenly, there was this desire by the promotors to have lots of tyre changes. The result was tyres that lasted for three corners unless they were nursed for the whole time. We're still living with the fall out from that today.

As with any proposed changes, the most important question is the one that almost never gets asked: what are the unintended consequences of this action?

The Law of Unintended Consequences always finds a way to bite you. Always.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
El Scorchio
55
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

notsofast wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:51 am
SQ allows cars that qualify out of position on Friday to regain their normal position, which means that Sunday will be even more of a procession than it is today.
Only if they are willing to risk damaging their car trying to get up the grid. If anything goes wrong you'll end up dead last on Sunday. But you are right- it's tantamount to just giving a Hamilton or Verstappen a 'second chance' if something goes wrong for one of them on Friday. The question is how much are they willing to risk to get back there. But it does take away the X factor of a freakish qualifying session.

User avatar
El Scorchio
55
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:07 pm
My main beef with the plan is that it seems to be a solution to a question that no one has asked.
Absolutely nailed it in one sentence.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:55 pm


Regardless of, Anderson seem to be sad that the “Nursing the Tires” days might be gone... Can’t stop thinking that he just wants to hate the concept and will find anything (even if ridiculous as this) to bash it.

It’s like people getting mad because the value of FP2 is gone!... Like we cared before this about the “value of FP2”... It’s just nit picking to try and hate the concept as much as possible, even before we have had one weekend with the new format to make anything remotely close to an objective analysis on whether it worked or not.
Keeping a set of tyres in good condition whilst keeping a decent pace is a key skill of any halfway decent driver. So the idea that we'll potentially lose that reduces a variable in the race.

I'm not so worried about losing FP2, more that a key part of the weekend will be happening when many/most of the audience won't be able to see it. That just seems a bit silly to me. It'll be great for the people that are able to get to / afford to go to the circuit for the whole weekend. It'll make Fridays a bit more interesting. So that's a plus point for it. But they are a minority.

My main beef with the plan is that it seems to be a solution to a question that no one has asked. No one has said "how can we make qualifying for the race more interesting?" have they? The current qualifying scenario seems to be fairly universally liked.

It feels like a repeat of the tyre debate a few years ago. There was a race where lots of tyre changes were required and it was an exciting race (was it Button's Canada win?). Suddenly, there was this desire by the promotors to have lots of tyre changes. The result was tyres that lasted for three corners unless they were nursed for the whole time. We're still living with the fall out from that today.

As with any proposed changes, the most important question is the one that almost never gets asked: what are the unintended consequences of this action?

The Law of Unintended Consequences always finds a way to bite you. Always.
Very valid point on the unintended consequences... That’s why it will be in place during only 3 out of 23 races... Which will provide an opportunity to better understand those unintended consequences, it isn’t like if every race will see the new format.

In regards to the tires, we all have different opinions, I much rather would prefer drivers pushing during their stints... The way today’s formula work is that we have action in only a handful of phases during the race... At the start, before and after the pitstop window and at the end of the race... We are robbed of any meaningful action during almost 2/3rds of the race because drivers have to protect their tires, therefore settling in a position and driving to a given delta because the pitstop loss time is larger than the potential gain of pushing on the tires.

Those races in which we have had a late safety car have usually provided more action during the last few laps where teams weren’t worried about tire condition.

Is it an skill to make the tires last? Definitely... But from a “racing” perspective, I much rather watch races where saving tires isn’t mandatory... Totally out of subject, but if I would be leading F1 the one change that I would make is make 2 stops mandatory on every race, that will provide a plethora of strategy options, allow drivers to push harder on a given set of tires and potentially (because of the changes on strategy) have cars “out of position” which would instead promote more action on track.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
772
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:50 pm

In regards to the tires, we all have different opinions, I much rather would prefer drivers pushing during their stints... The way today’s formula work is that we have action in only a handful of phases during the race... At the start, before and after the pitstop window and at the end of the race... We are robbed of any meaningful action during almost 2/3rds of the race because drivers have to protect their tires, therefore settling in a position and driving to a given delta because the pitstop loss time is larger than the potential gain of pushing on the tires.
That is a consequence of the tyres designed for the FIA. A consequence of that decision made years ago to have tyres that don't last.
Is it an skill to make the tires last? Definitely... But from a “racing” perspective, I much rather watch races where saving tires isn’t mandatory... Totally out of subject, but if I would be leading F1 the one change that I would make is make 2 stops mandatory on every race, that will provide a plethora of strategy options, allow drivers to push harder on a given set of tires and potentially (because of the changes on strategy) have cars “out of position” which would instead promote more action on track.
The reality is that there is generally one "fastest" strategy for cars of similar performance. All of the teams will generally work around that strategy. Sure, you can play around with overcuts and undercuts, but there really isn't that much else that can be done. If you force 2 stops (something that effectively the "make the tyres not last" strategy was trying to do), you'll generally find the teams doing the same thing as each other. Why? Because there is generally one fastest strategy and any other strategy isn't as fast unless something random happens (an accident causing a safety car, for example).

The Law of Unintended Consequences would apply to your mandatory 2-stop race requirement. It's worth remembering that sometimes the best races occur where a driver / team tries something different. Be it trying a one stopper when others are two-stopping, or even throwing in an extra stop when others don't. Think Hungary 2019. That wouldn't have happened with a mandated two stop race, for example. And that was definitely a very good race. Being able to extend a stint to allow a better tyre in the second stint, or to take a one-stop race where a 2-stop is normally considered optimum, is a driver skill just as much as hustling for 20 laps straight. Taking that away certainly would diminish F1 in my view.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
76
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: New race weekend format 2021

Post

I'll ultimately reserve judgement until we've seen the first weekend with this format, but I'm not currently excited about it and I'm certainly sceptical.

I would be much more interested to see different formats tested in a way that don't impact the main event. For example, the reverse WDC order grid sprint race idea, but the result doesn't impact anything else in the weekend. They could score and award points for that race, but perhaps in a way that's more sporting, maybe +1 point for every 5 places gained? As well as awarding points for the top 3. That way you could give back markers something to fight for at the front, and the WDC contenders something to fight for at the back. The WDC has the most to gain, as they could in theory gain the most points by overtaking everyone and winning the sprint race. I'd prefer to see this kind of event as a sort of "joker" event that happens at some point in the season as a one-off.