New race weekend format 2021

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graham.reeds
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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What's the betting that one of the sprint races will be Monaco?

Why the need to make a race on the Saturday is beyond me. The fans at the track get to see Porsche and F2/3 racing.

I would of thought RB and SD would of stopped this dead in its tracks.

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jjn9128
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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graham.reeds wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:53 am
What's the betting that one of the sprint races will be Monaco?

Why the need to make a race on the Saturday is beyond me. The fans at the track get to see Porsche and F2/3 racing.

I would of thought RB and SD would of stopped this dead in its tracks.
This whole idea seems to be coming from Brawn (assuming RB= Ross Brawn and SD= Stefano Domenicalli). That's the most worrying thing about it.

The 3 races have already been announced Silverstone, Monza, and Interlagos (if it happens).
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NathanOlder
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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graham.reeds wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:53 am
What's the betting that one of the sprint races will be Monaco?

Why the need to make a race on the Saturday is beyond me. The fans at the track get to see Porsche and F2/3 racing.

I would of thought RB and SD would of stopped this dead in its tracks.
I thought it was pretty much agreed that it will be Silverstone and Monza. With the non European race being Interlagos
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El Scorchio
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:07 pm
graham.reeds wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:53 am
What's the betting that one of the sprint races will be Monaco?

Why the need to make a race on the Saturday is beyond me. The fans at the track get to see Porsche and F2/3 racing.

I would of thought RB and SD would of stopped this dead in its tracks.
I thought it was pretty much agreed that it will be Silverstone and Monza. With the non European race being Interlagos
I can't see Silverstone or Monza in any way mixing up the order in a sprint race. I wonder if they've strategically chosen the UK and Italy as big markets where it'll get the most exposure and probably generate the most revenue. Surely the Brazil GP (sadly) isn't even going to be happening this year?

Just_a_fan
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:57 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:07 pm
graham.reeds wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:53 am
What's the betting that one of the sprint races will be Monaco?

Why the need to make a race on the Saturday is beyond me. The fans at the track get to see Porsche and F2/3 racing.

I would of thought RB and SD would of stopped this dead in its tracks.
I thought it was pretty much agreed that it will be Silverstone and Monza. With the non European race being Interlagos
I can't see Silverstone or Monza in any way mixing up the order in a sprint race. I wonder if they've strategically chosen the UK and Italy as big markets where it'll get the most exposure and probably generate the most revenue. Surely the Brazil GP (sadly) isn't even going to be happening this year?
Silverstone and Monza are both fast and allow overtaking. Something essential in this format. Both also get big crowds attending (normally), so there will be more chance of good fan feedback because of the numbers who will benefit at the circuit (where this is really only of benefit).
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jjn9128
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:02 pm
Silverstone and Monza are both fast and allow overtaking. Something essential in this format. Both also get big crowds attending (normally), so there will be more chance of good fan feedback because of the numbers who will benefit at the circuit (where this is really only of benefit).
Silverstone has historically been at full capacity all 3 days of a Grand Prix, surely that's exactly the race they don't need the extra incentive to get fans along on Friday/Saturday :lol:
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Manoah2u
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Will have to wait and see.

It might work, it might not.

There are many possible formats to go with. Personally, i think the current format is good enough, and i would concider waiting with sprint qualifying untill 2023, when the teams have fully adapted to the new car designs.

That said, if i would have a little fantasy freedom,
i would much rather go with a friday FP1 of 1 hour, then a FP2 of 30 minutes.
Then have a split-qualification session of two times 30 minutes, with a 15 minute rest in between.
No knockout session, but a 'classic' crowded Q1 session that decides the order of the Saturday sprint session.
Then have Q2 exactly the same as Q1 but it sets the order for the Sunday full race distance.

After Q1 and Q2, keep the cars on parc fermé conditions untill the Saturday afternoon Sprint race, as either a 50% or 40% race distance. Then have the cars with no parc fermé conditions do the sunday race.

As for points:

Give 50% WDC points for the sprint race.

Give 100% WDC points for the sunday race. just as it is now.
Sunday race gets 1 WDC point for fastest lap. just as it is now.

Saturday race gets 1/2 WDC point for fastest lap, but instead of only getting rewarded if it's in a top 10 finish, like it is now, the WDC point gets awarded no matter what position the driver finishes, but it will only be awarded in the last 15 minutes of te race AND driver must maintain within track limits AND finish the entire race distance on track (not finish in the pitlane).

That way small 'backmarker' teams get the opportunity to catch some points, and teams are less motivated to 'retire' a car if they have no prospect of finishing in a p10 position.

To make sure Q2 qualifying is a tad different to Q1 and teams are motivated to perform even better:

Q2 qualifying gets 2 points for pole position, 1 point for 2nd, 1/2 a point for P3.
Perhaps make Q2 qualifying Knockout Qualifying as it is now, just shorten the first stint.

In a single race weekend,
this means that a driver is able to score 41 points in a single race weekend.
it also means that f.e. Haas or Williams drivers get to beat eachother through getting the fastest lap in the final 15 minutes of the sprint race, motivating them not only to actually FINISH the race, but also be COMPETITIVE in the final 15 minutes of the race, and build a capable car for that, perhaps change tires in the last 15 minutes, and further influence strategy.

Topteams obviously are much faster than the backmarkers, but if they want to make the fastest lap in the last 15 minutes of the race, they might need to change tires in a much less advantageous time window, and risk their current position and as such, points, just for 1/2 a point, and by running on the limit, risk going outside of track limits with potentially worn tires, and put their position in peril, or worse, burning through their fuel in the final stage of the GP.

Backmarker teams are pushed more this way to perform because not only is there always a possibility for points by making P10 as normal, but they can't risk not going for a final change (1/2) point, and as such, they need to perform in the final stages and not just parade around. It's in their benefit thus to get within DRS range of other cars, so they benefit from quickly going aside to let front runners lap them, and then chase them to get DRS and get a fast lap.
Still they must finish the full race distance AND not finish in the pitlane after achieving that goal so to not just participate only for a brief moment during the sprint race.
Perhaps this can be further motivated by introducing a 105% rule instead of a 107% rule.

also, rule infringements during saturday sprint racing can now also be reviewed after the race and for example a penalty will be applied not at the next race but in the sunday race.
Last edited by Manoah2u on Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wouter
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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https://www.silverstone.co.uk/news/silv ... grand-prix


SILVERSTONE HOST FIRST SPRINT QUALIFYING AT THE 2021 FORMULA 1 BRITISH GRAND PRIX
28 April 2021

Silverstone are delighted to confirm that the Formula 1 British Grand Prix will be the first event to trial the Sprint Qualifying format that was announced by Formula 1 and the FIA on 26 April.

The shorter sprint qualifying race will run to about one-third of the distance of a grand prix.

The format is designed to increase the on-track action and engage fans in new and innovative way. It also strikes the right balance of rewarding drivers and teams on merit while also giving others the chance to battle their way through the field on Saturday to increase their race chances on Sunday.

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El Scorchio
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:02 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:57 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:07 pm


I thought it was pretty much agreed that it will be Silverstone and Monza. With the non European race being Interlagos
I can't see Silverstone or Monza in any way mixing up the order in a sprint race. I wonder if they've strategically chosen the UK and Italy as big markets where it'll get the most exposure and probably generate the most revenue. Surely the Brazil GP (sadly) isn't even going to be happening this year?
Silverstone and Monza are both fast and allow overtaking. Something essential in this format. Both also get big crowds attending (normally), so there will be more chance of good fan feedback because of the numbers who will benefit at the circuit (where this is really only of benefit).
That is a good point- I mean, you'd be mad to try and make a risky overtake in the sprint race for fear of losing a bunch of place or even retiring from it so it does make sense to try it on places where overtaking is theoretically easiest, but I can't see the cars which are strongest in 'regular' qualifying on the track not also being strongest in the sprint race as well, so aside from the start, will all that much be going on? I can only see a hugely out of position driver being particularly ambitious, but then you have to hope they drive responsibly toward the other drivers.

Anyone with anything to lose will be taking supreme care of their car. Hamilton and Verstappen (nothing to gain and everything to lose) are not going to get into any sort of tussle over first place. My worry is that Bottas or Perez or Leclerc (or a n other) will try something over ambitious resulting in great cost to either Hamilton or Verstappen. An incident in the sprint race could lead to major ramifications in the title race which I am sure is not how any of us want to see it decided.

Manoah2u
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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that's why they should hand out points for the sprint race.
if they would, then it would be worthwile to take a risk.

now, it's not worth taking the risk if it ends up getting you at the tail end during the race start.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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El Scorchio
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:54 pm
that's why they should hand out points for the sprint race.
if they would, then it would be worthwile to take a risk.

now, it's not worth taking the risk if it ends up getting you at the tail end during the race start.
Part of me hugely agrees with that. Without any real 'reward', there's barely an incentive to advance, unless you're really out of position from Friday. It'll be more about staying out of trouble and not losing what you've got.

It'll only be interesting if Friday qualifying results in a really topsy turvy grid, or if Saturday has atrocious weather- although that could lead to everyone just tiptoeing round slowly in a procession.

Then again, if you award substantial points for Saturday, then unless you get freak results, it'll just exacerbate the current points gaps between drivers and teams- i.e. Hamilton and Verstappen will just become even further away from everyone else, the rest of the field will stretch out a bit more and overall the season will be slightly less close/competitive.

Manoah2u
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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yeah it's a double edged sword.

the only solution is simple, just dont do it at all.
As somebody else has put, it's a solution to a question nobody was asking.

I very much believe the 22 inch wheels and tires, paired to the new aerodynamics, and combined with the budget cieling, are more than enough measures to await and sit through to see how F1 will develop into.

I could not imagine the FIA not having concidered that too, so perhaps they have done some simulations and are expecting some borefest and try to change that by introducing sprint race/qually. then again, they once did 'wipeout' qualifying just a few years ago and that was so bad that it thankfully quickly got reversed back to the classic format, and nobody was waiting or asking for that 'tryout' either.

I personally think the reason they're implementing this 'saturday race' is because some stupid computer accountant commercially educated nerd looking for some fame has crunched in some math numbers based upon sunday TV views and saturday TV views, together with crowd numbers, and put on a paper on table to a bunch of rather non-interested old folks in the sport that there is proof sunday is more popular than saturday. DAH.
However, when the old boys responded the same, this math nerd was smartass enough to turn it into something that has their interest: making MORE money, and suddenly they started listening. And the probable math that was put on the table is : you need to make saturday more exciting to make more money by more viewers. They tried this with wipeout qually a while ago, and it didnt work. So then the smartass simply put out the obvious: the difference between sunday and saturday is that that sunday holds a RACE. people like RACING more than qually.
So turn saturday into a race, and you get more views.
The simple truth is that he's actually going to be right. I bet you a hundred bucks that the first saturday sprint race in silverstone is going to get a lot more views than last year's qually or the qually the race before.
Likewise, friday really holds a very very few people that'll actually want to watch the sessions (live). However, now that friday is qually, the majority of people that watch F1 now - whom enjoy qually - will ALSO tune in (recording it or not aside) for friday.
the fact of the matter is that this maths and tv view nerd knew from the get go that it is going to get more views, and as such, generates more money, and as such, top dogs are happy, and so it's concidered 'a success' from beforehand.

And that is certainly the reason why it gets implemented. And let's face it: teams like Mercedes - and RedBull too for that matter - also have been lured into the game.
After all: they now get the chance to win on saturday AND sunday. TWICE.
that sounds a lot better than finishing P1 in some qually session, and then win on sunday.

now the newspaper will read: Mercedes wins on saturday and AGAIN on sunday.
OR, Redbull wins on saturday, Mercedes on sunday.

exposure/sponsorshipwise it'll have merit.

On paper, RedBull will sell more cans on saturday if the news article reads that they/Max have WON. compared to getting pole position.

And as such, funny enough, RedBull - despite getting a costcap like all teams - now double their income, and thanks to the costcap their profit is even higher.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Just_a_fan
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:05 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:02 pm
Silverstone and Monza are both fast and allow overtaking. Something essential in this format. Both also get big crowds attending (normally), so there will be more chance of good fan feedback because of the numbers who will benefit at the circuit (where this is really only of benefit).
Silverstone has historically been at full capacity all 3 days of a Grand Prix, surely that's exactly the race they don't need the extra incentive to get fans along on Friday/Saturday :lol:
It's not about incentive to get fans there, it's about already having a full crowd of people who will see an extra "race" and therefore are more likely to give positive feedback to the FIA/Liberty. If you want to put forward an argument to make it permanent, having good feedback from fans at the track side would be a good way of doing it.

Do it at China, for example, and the few thousand bussed in the by track won't give two hoots. Do it at Silverstone and you have 125,000 people saying "yeah, we saw an extra race for our money, great job!".

Or maybe I am just too cynical for my own good. :lol:
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notsofast
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Well, if we're being cynical...

Sunday Grand Prix: 100km of racing followed by managing the tires until the end
Saturday Sprint Race: 100km of racing and then the checkered flag

Maybe they're weaning us off of the full Grand Prix so that in the future the Sunday race can be reduced to just 100km, because the fans find it more exciting. Easier to get a prime slot on the TV schedule. Time to add more support races with their own advertisers. And so on.

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RZS10
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Wasn't there a discussion of making the races shorter for ... reasons? Attention span or something?

I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that it's all being done under a cost cap, so not only will the teams and drivers have to preserve their limited components even more, they'll also have to look out after every single part, because every part that needs replacing is coming out of the development budget later in the season, at least for most teams - so i doubt anyone will go balls out or any more aggressive than in the main race, especially with the knowledge that they might damage further parts in the upcoming practice session and race. The big teams don't have an abundance of spare parts because of the cost cap, the small teams don't have them because they don't want to spend the money.

I don't understand why anyone expects that they will not be nursing tyres - which current tyre can handle flat out for one third of a race distance? None of the softer compounds, the mediums would still require some nursing and any of the harder compounds are probably too slow for a sprint race.

Regarding the actual qualifying session being moved to Friday, what if it's not yet about selling more expensive tickets etc?

The regular viewers will watch the quali race, simply because it's in the spot where quali used to be but additional viewers might watch just to see what it's all about without even having the intention to stick around if the format would stay that way, the actual quali however will happen on a Friday, which will naturally lead to lower ratings.

So even if the general opinion will be that it wasn't any better or more exciting, they will have "the data" that will tell them that the new format improved ratings on Saturday compared to a regular quali session, that more people watched the quali race than the qualifying on those weekends - this will then be all the justification they need to keep the format, which will then mean more revenue.

Cynical, i know, but i wouldn't put it past them to create a scenario that will give them the result they want no matter what, especially when i think about how they designed their surveys regarding the reverse order races which were full of leading questions, which if answered honestly turned everyone, even those who hated the idea into supporters of it.