New race weekend format 2021

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Qualifying is the one part of F1 that actually works well. It builds through the session and has the climax at the end of the hour. It's a mirror of the ideal season, really.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Ringleheim
Ringleheim
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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100 KM at Monza, for example, is around 17 laps! Not exactly a short little sprint dust-off.

That is more than enough time for the fastest cars to establish themselves out front and win in dominating style....just like NOW.

What is the point of that?

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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New race weekend format 2021

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I’m not that negative towards the new format... It may actually be an interesting development for F1 and could potentially mix things up a bit.

I’ll try to go through it as Anderson did with a different point of view:

The Justification: Increase on-track action.

There will be more on track action, both FP1 and FP2 will be more important than ever, FP1 particularly with teams only having 1 hour to set the cars up for the Qualifying session and FP2 to set the cars for the Sprint Race and the Race.

He also implies (rightly so) that end race results are usually in within expectations... But, as others have mentioned there is always the possibility for the midfield teams to be more aggressive than the top teams during the Sprint Race, with less to lose we could see a bit more action and potentially a few cars higher than what their normal positions usually are... 3 interesting aspects that may have a big effect:

- Good starters: The drivers that are really good at race starts (GIO, SAI as examples) will have a chance to make a considerable amount of positions during the race starts.
- Racing “Flat Out”: With the smaller race format, there should be a lesser need to save tires and fuel, which means that potentially the drivers could be driving harder during those ~20 laps than they usually do on the actual race (where tire and fuel saving are a need for all teams).
- Conservative vs Aggressive: The top drivers will probably be more conservative since they have to be worried about the actual race and may be more conservative... Those with less to lose will have a chance to be more aggressive and maybe upset the status quo, clear ones would be the 2nd drivers (Bottas and Checo) which probably can risk more than Hamilton and Verstappen... Same for the guys at the midfield, Mclaren and Ferrari may decide to be more conservative than Alpine and Alpha Tauri, potentially changing what would have been a given on Sunday in terms of start positions.

The Scoring System:

Anderson makes a point that the Championship could be decided earlier because points will be given to the ones in the top 3, it could go either way... If Hamilton or Verstappen are dominating then yes, potentially they will win the Sprint Race and simply add more points thanks to it, but it could easily be the other way around and actually delay the decision on who ends up victorious by season end... Furthermore if the top 3 will be usually the same guys (Merc - RBR) it will be potentially be only a few more points than usual, which with 3 races under the new format may not play a significant factor... No different than the same negative argument about the Fast Lap points.

The Friday Schedule:

Some may not be able to watch Qualifying “Live”, but will have a hopefully “fun” Sprint Race to watch on Saturday... Unless we have a reliable crystal ball, is too early to tell if it will be a good trade off... And in regards to missing qualifying, I know not peaking in the internet / social media to know the results before watching it is hard, ultimately people can always watch when they get home on Friday and still enjoy it :)

The Saturday Schedule:

Anderson makes a very silly comment: “Gone is the challenge of trying to make the soft tires last for 20 laps”... Isn’t this something that most fans actually dislike? The fact that drivers aren’t going all out and are forced to save tires because it ends up been faster for a race distance? I actually welcome the fact that we might be see the cars driven in anger without concern for saving tires.

The GP itself:

This is the only where I can’t find a big positive point... If the teams only have 2 set of tires for the GP, the strategical choices are very limited and will be fixed to a one stop race... At the same time, it isn’t that much different to today’s reality where more races are one-stoppers regardless of the availability of tires.

My Verdict:

Let’s give them a try... It’s 3 races where we will see the new format, it could be a boring fiasco or it could add genuine excitement and a welcome change to the weekend... We won’t know until it takes place and can be assessed afterwards.

What won’t change is that the new format will probably favor some and handicap others, so I also expect a lot of bickering and complaining by one group or the other based on the outcome.


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Zynerji
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:30 pm
Qualifying is the one part of F1 that actually works well. It builds through the session and has the climax at the end of the hour. It's a mirror of the ideal season, really.
Agreed. Knockout qualifying is THE BEST part of the F1 circus!

And none of the benefits that they say will happen (harder, closer racing) will materialize, as it will just become another variable to be managed, and will quickly become optimized below "full tilt".

The car formula is the problem, as well as the secrecy around the bespoke designs. Fix that, and the rest of the weekend sorts itself out.

PS: Sprint race could be limited to 3rd cars, reserve drivers, and WCC points only, and then they can run before regular knockout qualifying.

Then it would be a great addition to F1.

tpe
tpe
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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If they wanted to make closer racing, the solution would be simple.
Give the smaller teams more tokens. Split the token system in 2 major areas and allow the smaller teams more tokens.
This could allow them to converge. Not a fake race

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Zynerji
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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tpe wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:13 pm
If they wanted to make closer racing, the solution would be simple.
Give the smaller teams more tokens. Split the token system in 2 major areas and allow the smaller teams more tokens.
This could allow them to converge. Not a fake race
Just make the teams share their data. It literally solves everything.

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nzjrs
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:16 pm
tpe wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:13 pm
If they wanted to make closer racing, the solution would be simple.
Give the smaller teams more tokens. Split the token system in 2 major areas and allow the smaller teams more tokens.
This could allow them to converge. Not a fake race
Just make the teams share their data. It literally solves everything.
My suggestion was to share homologated engine performance measurements rather than data per se.

Regardless that's probably obsolete now that the engines have more or less converged.

djones
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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I’ve just seen the explanation of this format and all I can say is wow!

Wow..... which clowns came up with this. Aside from the fact most people have jobs on a Friday and therefore can’t watch qualifying anymore, what exactly do they expect from the sprint race? There will be incredibly minimal position changes near the front, just like in the first part of an actual race.

LHamilton
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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This Sprint Qualifying (SQ from now on) is such a joke to me. It has so many flaws with it.

Firstly, to me this is a sutble way to introduce what F1 hopes to be a reverse-esque grid order. If something happens in the SQ, you are comprimised in the race on Sunday. Which makes me believe that most drivers, at least the ones at the front, won't make any ballers moves in the SQ due to the risk of compromising you on a Sunday. What if one driver retires on Saturday and has to fight from the back on Sunday. No point going for a somewhat risky overtake to gain one point, if the risk/reward of such move might be that you start out of position. Things like that are happening during normal qualifying, but is less likely due to how races/qualifying normally works.

Second, why are we breaking up FP1 and FP2? I can already see little running in FP2. Because you are already in parc ferme, so you can't change anything. The only thing you can do is tyre work and aero. And aero is only if you have parts that you don't want/can't use that weekend. But if you have the intention to bring aero-parts, you more often than not have the intention to actually race them that weekend. And unless you're using them in FP1 (to which you have to go through both qualifying- and race programs in one hour which leaves little time for upgrades in the first place) and decides to stick with them, you can't.

So FP2 will for the most part be solely based around race tyre work. And given that teams already should have done some work in FP1, will probably leave teams doing 30 minutes on track action. So we might have increased 'dead time' in the beginning of FP2, where very few, if any, leaves the garage. Unless FP1 was compromised for someone due to various circumstances that is.

For me, with the introduction of the SQ, it leaves both Friday and Saturday muted. Before we had qualifying and the race. Two distinct different things to which drivers show their mastery. Now, you have the SQ in the middle of both. So for me, qualifying becomes a bit 'meh', since it might not be representative of what Sunday will be. So the 'high' you get from qualifying will be muted due to knowing that the SQ might change things up.

And when it comes to the actual action on Saturday in the SQ, I wonder who will risk their Sunday for better positioning? As I said, I'd be very suprised if the top teams (Merc and RB primiarily) compromised themselves on Saturday (SQ) where there are significatly less points. What if one driver decides to be a hero and go for an overtake which takes a driver out? I just feel the outcome of whatever happens in the SQ will have a negative outcome. Either safety comes first (in terms of not compromising yourself on Sunday) and there is close to a stalemate in the racing (which makes the race useless in the first place), or someone (most likely a midfield team or 'low-end' team) tries to do some heroics and might himself (or other) suffer from it.

And since it's not really the race or qualifying per normal, but a 'qualifying race', it's neither here nor there in actual real value. Obviously there are some, but for me it's more in the lines of 'meh'. Because it's not the thrill of seeing people on the edge of how fast they can go (Qualifying) and it's not really the finishing race result either.

And what if a driver is out of position due to no fault of his own by either a mechanical error (which is far more likely in a race scenario) or (god forbid) being taken out by a driver. Then we might be 'robbed' of a good Sunday race. And even if someone is out of positioning, it's not really THAT fun seeing people who's car is far superior 'fighting' through the field. It's just kinda artifical to me. I just think there is more to lose from the SQ than there is to gain. And surely i'm not the only one thinking this. Anderson has pointed this out and I wouldn't be suprised if drivers, engineers, team principal and teams as a whole do the same.

So to Summarize:

You break up FP1 and FP2 to make FP2 somewhat useless.

You have the qualifying on a Friday which will make some people likely miss it. But it's ok, because it's not really a qualifying session. So that is somewhat ruined.

You have introduce the SQ which will be the real qualifying, but it's not really a qualifying per se. It's a race, but it's not THE race which gives most points and prices. It gives far less points and thus far less of value. So again we have a session of little value.

Then it's the race, which hopefully will have everyone in order. But you only had one REAL FP session to set up the car for the race. Hopefully you didnt get compromised that session or your chances of maximising the race will be greatly reduced. But it's ok, because there might be some people out of position depending on what happens on Saturday.

Great work here. In my opinion every session has pretty much become worse. A part from FP1 maybe, since everything will be squeezed into that session. So cars will be running constantly. But with one hour taken away already from 2020, FP1 has already seen quite some running.

Even if everyone is where they are supposed to be in the race, having an extra 'race' takes some magic out of Sunday. Because it's almost like we have seen a 'preview' of what is to come on Sunday, with the SQ on Saturday.

So every session, some more than others, have become more muted.

Brilliant, brilliant introduction of a brilliant idea. Can't wait for it!

EDIT: I misunderstood the parc ferme rule. Thought you were in parc ferme by the end of FP1, but looks like you can still change things in FP2. What you can change hasn't really been laid out. So my point about parc ferme in the text is somewhat invalid.

The new format still sucks though.
Last edited by LHamilton on Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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El Scorchio
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Seems utterly pointless to me. Just a money spinning exercise for the sport as they can now sell Friday and Saturday tickets for more money.

It’s just a couple of extra points for a few people. There’s no tactic involved. Just qualify well on Friday, and then tiptoe round Saturday so as not to ruin your chances for Sunday.

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Zynerji
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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This reminds me of fuel-burn quali from 2007...🙄

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Wouter
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F1's new Sprint Qualifying format

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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... atSjx.html

Everything you need to know about F1's new Sprint Qualifying format – including how it works

What’s the format?

Sprint Qualifying will be a race run over 100km and lasting around 25-30 minutes. It is designed to provide a short and fast-paced racing spectacle – similar to a Twenty20 cricket match – with drivers racing flat-out from start to finish without the need to pit.

Points will be awarded to the top three finishers, three for the winner down to one point for third. There won’t be a podium ceremony, as that honour will remain the privilege of the top three in Sunday’s Grand Prix, however the winner will get a trophy in Parc Ferme, presented in a similar manner to the tyre the pole-sitter receives from F1’s tyre supplier Pirelli after qualifying.

The finishing order of the race will define the grid for Sunday’s showpiece event – the Grand Prix, where the traditional format will remain unchanged.

There will be a more modest grid procedure for Sprint Qualifying, with media and guests permitted on grid as is the case in non-Covid times for the Grand Prix, but moments such as the national anthem will be unique to Sunday’s main race.

So what happens to qualifying?

The one-hour session, split into three segments, that has yielded plenty of drama in recent years, will still a big part of the show. However, it will move to Friday, giving the first day of track action some gravitas and a crescendo event.

The plan is to move the session later in the day, to make it easier for fans who are working to watch the session.

The tyre rules will change for this session, with only soft tyres permitted. As a result, teams and drivers will be free to start Sunday’s race on any compound, rather than having to run the tyre they qualify on in Q2.

And what about practice? ....................

What if it's wet?................

How does Parc Ferme work?..................

....................

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:49 pm


The Saturday Schedule:

Anderson makes a very silly comment: “Gone is the challenge of trying to make the soft tires last for 20 laps”... Isn’t this something that most fans actually dislike? The fact that drivers aren’t going all out and are forced to save tires because it ends up been faster for a race distance? I actually welcome the fact that we might be see the cars driven in anger without concern for saving tires.
It's not just tyres. There's also PU/drive train component life. 20 laps flat out is a considerable increase in PU/drive train wear.

So even if they could do the sprint as a sprint, they probably won't.

What might happen is backmarkers risk running the car in "Q3 mode" for 20 laps and hope to gain a point or two from the sprint race. But even that might not work out, leading to them having issues with PU components later in the season.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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jjn9128
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Ironically (or maybe contradictorily) I would have supported trying this last year, when the calendar was so messed up, but this year with a more stable calendar and what looks like a legitimately tight championship battle I can't get behind it. It just feels wrong to have a championship with different formats at different race weekends.

To me it stems from a fundamental lack of faith in the product their selling. Like a lot of American owned sports they want to tart it up for the lowest common denominator, they don't care about existing fans because most will stick around regardless. It's like the European Super League idea (most of the British involved teams are American owned) which was so slated by football fans as being a cynical cash grab - but a lot of fans were saying they'd still support their team because they always had.

To use the example from the F1 website quoted by Wouter of twenty20 cricket. For me t20 is an abomination, it's taken all the subtlety out of cricket, Aussies call their t20 series the "big bash" and for me that's all it is, unnuanced swinging for 6's and none of the intrigue or strategy you'd normally see from test cricket. But t20 is huge in India where the IPL rakes in vast amounts of money. So there's little wonder Liberty Media are so keen.
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JRindt
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Re: New race weekend format 2021

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but what exactly is the point of part ferme anymore?

It was introduced to prevent teams from preparing qualifying specific cars, which increases costs. But, with the cost cap in place, what’s the point?