2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
dans79
dans79
395
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:30 pm
I dont understand what is so controversial about wanting to see driving between the lines being enforced, without deciding per-race which corners "fall into the above" with all due ambiguity.
Then you need to talk to the FIA, because its been this way forever.
176 101 100 7

Aesop
Aesop
0
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:30 pm

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

The overtake reminded me of this:
https://youtu.be/EHBgQw5OecA

Hamilton got penalized, wonder what woukd happen if Max had claimed the corner cause it was his imo. He chose not to crash which probably was the wise decision, and the call to give 'back' position was therefor a bit harsh.

DChemTech
DChemTech
71
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:00 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:30 pm
I dont understand what is so controversial about wanting to see driving between the lines being enforced, without deciding per-race which corners "fall into the above" with all due ambiguity.
Then you need to talk to the FIA, because its been this way forever.
Yeah, but that something is the status quo is no reason to keep it.

dans79
dans79
395
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:08 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:00 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:30 pm
I dont understand what is so controversial about wanting to see driving between the lines being enforced, without deciding per-race which corners "fall into the above" with all due ambiguity.
Then you need to talk to the FIA, because its been this way forever.
Yeah, but that something is the status quo is no reason to keep it.
Like i said then talk to the FIA, because even the teams have just about zero chance of getting these rules changed.
176 101 100 7

User avatar
nzjrs
124
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:21 am
Location: Austria/UK

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

This reminds me of Turkish grand prix last year. It seems people found another pin head to turn (their opinions) around on.

DChemTech
DChemTech
71
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:11 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:08 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:00 pm


Then you need to talk to the FIA, because its been this way forever.
Yeah, but that something is the status quo is no reason to keep it.
Like i said then talk to the FIA, because even the teams have just about zero chance of getting these rules changed.
Ok, so one is not allowed to challenge the status quo or point out shortcomings in it, because one cannot change it anyway? Then whats the point of any forum? We wont change anything to the car aero, team strategy or driver lineup either.

dans79
dans79
395
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:14 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:11 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:08 pm


Yeah, but that something is the status quo is no reason to keep it.
Like i said then talk to the FIA, because even the teams have just about zero chance of getting these rules changed.
Ok, so one is not allowed to challenge the status quo or point out shortcomings in it, because one cannot change it anyway? Then whats the point of any forum? We wont change anything to the car aero, team strategy or driver lineup either.
Fans can discuss it all they want, but the FIA and the teams could care less what the fans think when it comes to sporting regulations.


Reference the complaints any time an inside car pushed the outside car wide on turn exit. People go nuts and complain (specially on twitter) but nothing ever changes.
176 101 100 7

User avatar
Sieper
153
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

Aesop wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:05 pm
The overtake reminded me of this:
https://youtu.be/EHBgQw5OecA

Hamilton got penalized, wonder what woukd happen if Max had claimed the corner cause it was his imo. He chose not to crash which probably was the wise decision, and the call to give 'back' position was therefor a bit harsh.
I can live with it. As a max fan. He just couldn’t make it. Otherwise I fully agree with you.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

carisi2k
carisi2k
35
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

bonjon1979 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:07 am
From the screenshots, it looked like Max was off track an awful lot as well.

Also, if the race director explicitly tells the drivers that track limits wouldn't be monitored there, then you can't then expect the drivers to stick to them. Masi confirmed as much after the event, and even admitted that they changed the directive mid-race because some drivers were taking it too far. Overtaking off track has always been outlawed, otherwise, every driver would just not bother braking, shoot past and rejoin ahead. As for the argument that the move was already done, Max was only able to get ahead because he was able to brake later because he could run wide afterwards. It would be like people just not braking in time for the end chicane in canada - flying straight on while the other car takes the corner and rejoining in front. If one applied the same argument, you could say that the car behind was in front before the corner - obviously, if you don't brake hard enough to take the corner and the car in front does. You will over take them before the bend, you just will then be going too fast to make the corner.
I agree that going off track to pass isn't correct but in this case with lewis going off track 29 times it poses the question of does that apply then in this situation as off track? I haven't seen any videos showing max going off track let alone 29 times (over half the race) like there is for Lewis. If your going to allow Lewis to do it 29 times without penalty then don't change the rules mid race.

Turn 4 at Bahrain definetly needs to be fixed with an extension of the apex 2-3 metres further slowing the cars down by squaring the corner off and creating a later entry in to the corner. In addition a temporary sand trap just like what is built on street circuits should be created for the exit to keep the drivers in check. Drivers always respond to physical barriers and we know that sleeping policeman are not the answer after seeing that monza crash a couple of years ago.

User avatar
Sieper
153
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

Overtaking is something else then extending a corner to make some extra time.

There are no easy solutions to track limits. Gravel, car stuck, red flag sausage kerb, car broken, potentially a crash with others. Enforcing 100% a small unintended slip is a penalty.

To me, the only thing you can do, and should do, if you see track being cut lap after lap, just warn and if continuous, in avoidable scenraio’s, just penalize. 5 secs. This will ensure everybody will stick to the track if they can and still allow for a missed corner every once and again.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

A more subtle absurdity created by the way limits were enforced at T4:
Putting your inside wheels on the outside kerb, outside the white line, was considered a normal racing line, even in Q, and certainly in every lap, so it would be a legal place for a defending car to be. But it would be an ilegal place for an attacking car to be.
¡Puxa Esportin!

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
529
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

hollus wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:47 pm
A more subtle absurdity created by the way limits were enforced at T4:
Putting your inside wheels on the outside kerb, outside the white line, was considered a normal racing line, even in Q, and certainly in every lap, so it would be a legal place for a defending car to be. But it would be an ilegal place for an attacking car to be.
Not absurd. Because there is an advantge to be had for the outside car.

If the defending car is on the outside, he is legally required to file behind the attacking car as he returns to the track. If he instead uses the momentum to slip stream the attacking car and then makes a resulting pass, he will be penalized. (Hamilton Vs Kimi Spa 2008).

In Kimi Vs Fisichella Spa 2009, Kimi was excused because he did it on lap one.
. 100!!. CEN . TUR.. ION. 100!!..

User avatar
El Scorchio
57
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

The key point people seem to be missing, or unwilling to accept, is that the race director told all 20 drivers before the race that it was fine to be where Hamilton was in taking that corner. Hamilton did not exceed the limits defined by the race director, even if those limits were beyond the painted kerb. he was perfectly entitled to take it that wide, just as the other 19 drivers were. Until Red Bull complained about it, upon which the race director changed their mind. Then they started warning people, and no-one did it again. Anyone complaining about the line Hamilton was taking before the race director changed his mind is arguing about transgressing a rule that didn't even exist in the first place.

If you want to quibble about how track limits are defined race to race and session to session then that's another argument altogether. yes there should be some consistency, but in this race, the track limits as defined by the race director were adhered to. There is no controversy, unfairness or ambiguity.

cheeRS
cheeRS
4
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

fritticaldi wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:09 am
Let:s not forget that the race was amputated one lap because of Perez problems on the formation lap. An extra lap that could have had significant repercussions on the final result.
:wtf:



Image


:lol:

User avatar
Sieper
153
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:17 pm
The key point people seem to be missing, or unwilling to accept, is that the race director told all 20 drivers before the race that it was fine to be where Hamilton was in taking that corner. Hamilton did not exceed the limits defined by the race director, even if those limits were beyond the painted kerb. he was perfectly entitled to take it that wide, just as the other 19 drivers were. Until Red Bull complained about it, upon which the race director changed their mind. Then they started warning people, and no-one did it again. Anyone complaining about the line Hamilton was taking before the race director changed his mind is arguing about transgressing a rule that didn't even exist in the first place.

If you want to quibble about how track limits are defined race to race and session to session then that's another argument altogether. yes there should be some consistency, but in this race, the track limits as defined by the race director were adhered to. There is no controversy, unfairness or ambiguity.
Red Bull did not complain. They just instructed Max to do the same. Semantics, At which point it suddenly became enforced (not talking about the overtake). If the race director would explicitly feel going wide was OK why then change mind. The simple answer is because it is not OK to ignore the track if that suits your understeered (to avoid rear end instability) car better. Ferrari was nowhere near even the kerbs.

The race director might have said the T4 was not going to be enforced per qualy, but you always have to adhere to track as much as you can. The only team not doing it was Mercedes to workaround a problem still apparent in race 1.

Too bad RBR spotted it so late. costly mistake and well played by Mercedes.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/