2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:54 pm
The race director might have said the T4 was not going to be enforced per qualy, but you always have to adhere to track as much as you can. The only team not doing it was Mercedes to workaround a problem still apparent in race 1.
That's strait up false... People have posted shots of multiple other drivers doing it, including Max.

For example.
viewtopic.php?p=962059#p962059

Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:54 pm
Red Bull did not complain. They just instructed Max to do the same. Semantics, At which point it suddenly became enforced (not talking about the overtake). If the race director would explicitly feel going wide was OK why then change mind. The simple answer is because it is not OK to ignore the track if that suits your understeered (to avoid rear end instability) car better. Ferrari was nowhere near even the kerbs.
I'll counter this with a hypothesis from a different user. RBR told Max to do it explicitly in the hope that the race director/stewards would change their mind. Reason being they thought it would hurt Lewis/Merc more than it hurt them.
Last edited by dans79 on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:54 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:17 pm
The key point people seem to be missing, or unwilling to accept, is that the race director told all 20 drivers before the race that it was fine to be where Hamilton was in taking that corner. Hamilton did not exceed the limits defined by the race director, even if those limits were beyond the painted kerb. he was perfectly entitled to take it that wide, just as the other 19 drivers were. Until Red Bull complained about it, upon which the race director changed their mind. Then they started warning people, and no-one did it again. Anyone complaining about the line Hamilton was taking before the race director changed his mind is arguing about transgressing a rule that didn't even exist in the first place.

If you want to quibble about how track limits are defined race to race and session to session then that's another argument altogether. yes there should be some consistency, but in this race, the track limits as defined by the race director were adhered to. There is no controversy, unfairness or ambiguity.
Red Bull did not complain. They just instructed Max to do the same. Semantics, At which point it suddenly became enforced (not talking about the overtake). If the race director would explicitly feel going wide was OK why then change mind. The simple answer is because it is not OK to ignore the track if that suits your understeered (to avoid rear end instability) car better. Ferrari was nowhere near even the kerbs.

The race director might have said the T4 was not going to be enforced per qualy, but you always have to adhere to track as much as you can. The only team not doing it was Mercedes to workaround a problem still apparent in race 1.

Too bad RBR spotted it so late. costly mistake and well played by Mercedes.
Well more fool everyone else who wasn't taking full advantage of the defined track limits as per the race briefing then, and especially Verstappen and Red Bull who had a discussion about it over team radio which led to the race director changing his mind. maybe they should have listened better during the briefing. Nevertheless everyone had the same freedom to use that part of the track before the radio conversation and no-one had the freedom to use it afterwards.

I don't know why it seems so difficult for you to grasp that Hamilton was doing absolutely nothing wrong at that corner, and was 100% adhering to the rules set to all the drivers by the race director, both before and after the mid race change.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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His Outlap excursion was even shown in the telly broadcast. Why do you think that was 👍
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 pm
His Outlap excursion was even shown in the telly broadcast. Why do you think that was 👍
who are you responding to?
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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A memeifed explination!


Edit: Though I have to counter the videos recommendation. The average fan is the last person the FIA should be taking guidance from. Imo, they pander to them to much already!
Last edited by dans79 on Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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ringo
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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bosyber wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:35 am
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:26 am
lh13 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:49 am


He would have ended up behind if he pitted the next lap, because the undercut was too strong, and then there would be no fight, as both would be on tires with the same life.
I think it would have been interesting to see. I don´t see RB's theoretical superiority on long runs so maybe Lewis would be able to hold Max.

About the incident, I see extrange how Max looked slower after he let Lewis go through. I was sure he had a problem but It seems I was wrong. Still, I consider it a weird thing as he was clearly faster before the overtake. He should have been able to attack Lewis again but he couldn´t do it.
We could see he had a slight stepping out at the back just after, might well be that his tyres overheated a bit, and when that happens, they lose out quite a bit.
I think his head overheated. That's the main explanation. He saw the laps winding down and got red mist.
For Sure!!

Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Max addressed this specifically. He said his tires were going and on his past attempt, Lewis was slightly balked by a lapped car, this is why he had a run.

He said after he let Lewis by, the tires didn’t have enough in the tank to try again.

Does anyone read or watch post race interviews?

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langedweil
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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We're back to normal here at last ... pages and pages of "I'm right, you're silly .."

Nonetheless .. great race, pity that unnecessary dumb tracklimits-ruling is overshadowing that.
Another bugger is that we have to wait 3 wks
HuggaWugga !

dans79
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Another view of multiple moves during the race!

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Stu
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:02 pm
Overtaking is something else then extending a corner to make some extra time.

There are no easy solutions to track limits. Gravel, car stuck, red flag sausage kerb, car broken, potentially a crash with others. Enforcing 100% a small unintended slip is a penalty.

To me, the only thing you can do, and should do, if you see track being cut lap after lap, just warn and if continuous, in avoidable scenraio’s, just penalize. 5 secs. This will ensure everybody will stick to the track if they can and still allow for a missed corner every once and again.
That would require a team of stewards, on monitoring each corner (via the live-stream), or one monitoring the on-boards for each driver (continuously). There are only three stewards at the moment (??)
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:29 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:14 am
Seb is over. Binotto dishing out the insults.
I felt last year was the best time for him to retire.

He can go on, but what honour is there next to Lance Stroll? Will an extra win make a difference? Will a strong finishing performance make a difference?

I am not sure.
It is about his happiness. If he feels like racing and is in the position to do so then absolutely. Even if it is just for points.

Having followed Seb, I know he is dreaming big and I think Aston can be big. I don't have an issue with the position he finished or the difficult weekend or another year of being in a bad car. I have an issue with his crash. Something seems to be terminally destroyed and if that is the case then he should call it a day.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

tangodjango
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:13 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:54 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:17 pm
The key point people seem to be missing, or unwilling to accept, is that the race director told all 20 drivers before the race that it was fine to be where Hamilton was in taking that corner. Hamilton did not exceed the limits defined by the race director, even if those limits were beyond the painted kerb. he was perfectly entitled to take it that wide, just as the other 19 drivers were. Until Red Bull complained about it, upon which the race director changed their mind. Then they started warning people, and no-one did it again. Anyone complaining about the line Hamilton was taking before the race director changed his mind is arguing about transgressing a rule that didn't even exist in the first place.

If you want to quibble about how track limits are defined race to race and session to session then that's another argument altogether. yes there should be some consistency, but in this race, the track limits as defined by the race director were adhered to. There is no controversy, unfairness or ambiguity.
Red Bull did not complain. They just instructed Max to do the same. Semantics, At which point it suddenly became enforced (not talking about the overtake). If the race director would explicitly feel going wide was OK why then change mind. The simple answer is because it is not OK to ignore the track if that suits your understeered (to avoid rear end instability) car better. Ferrari was nowhere near even the kerbs.

The race director might have said the T4 was not going to be enforced per qualy, but you always have to adhere to track as much as you can. The only team not doing it was Mercedes to workaround a problem still apparent in race 1.

Too bad RBR spotted it so late. costly mistake and well played by Mercedes.
Well more fool everyone else who wasn't taking full advantage of the defined track limits as per the race briefing then, and especially Verstappen and Red Bull who had a discussion about it over team radio which led to the race director changing his mind. maybe they should have listened better during the briefing. Nevertheless everyone had the same freedom to use that part of the track before the radio conversation and no-one had the freedom to use it afterwards.

I don't know why it seems so difficult for you to grasp that Hamilton was doing absolutely nothing wrong at that corner, and was 100% adhering to the rules set to all the drivers by the race director, both before and after the mid race change.
Because the narrative was Hamilton has lucked into these cars and apparently almost anyone could have won those championships and Verstappen would walk all over him in equal cars. So now that the great saviour Verstappen with a faster car and a tyre advantage and twice the talent of Senna+Schumacher apparently could barely get a sniff and bottled it under pressure, excuses have to be sought and straws have to be clutched at.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

LM10
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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I think the conclusion of all the track limit discussion is that the inconsistent and ridiculous behaviour of the FIA yet again put a shadow on an otherwise really exciting race. Their sudden decisions are nothing more than arbitrary, often make no sense and totally affect the outcome of a race at times. That fact the teams themselves are confused on many occasions underlines that.

Initially no track limits in FP1 as far as I can remember, then track limits until qualifying and then out of nothing no track limits in the race again. :wtf:

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hollus
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Yep, if they had applied the criteria from the first half of the race for the whole race, no one would be complaining. And if they had applied the criteria from the second half of the race for the whole race, no one would be complaining.
¡Puxa Esportin!

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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hollus wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:46 am
Yep, if they had applied the criteria from the first half of the race for the whole race, no one would be complaining. And if they had applied the criteria from the second half of the race for the whole race, no one would be complaining.
Nah, I think if they didn't change the track limits they set for turn 4 from the start of the race to the end, it'll still be an issue because Max went out during an overtake. It would have been better if Turn 4 was always enforced, then no one would get confused about the differences between what happened during Max's pass and what everyone else was doing during their normal drive around turn 4.