2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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I don't see any new car being able to overtake without drs. even the up to 2016 cars that were much less fast, much less big, had much, much less wing and tire width still needed it.

Look DRS shouldn't be overpowered, and it sometimes is, but I see them trying to finetune it year by year on every track. Like here.

The main "problem" here is that a top car fell out of the normal order, and was indeed able to get the place back with relative ease. But the car would otherwise also have been on P2 or even P1 and we wouldn't have said DRS was overpowered. The other cars really still had a tough time overtaking each other, even with DRS.

It's just an extra advantage when you are in a top car, that is true. And maybe, if you can even make short work of the top of the midfield , there is a problem there. But that too is being worked on with the budget cap.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:57 am

Look DRS shouldn't be overpowered, and it sometimes is, but I see them trying to finetune it year by year on every track. Like here.
They lengthened the DRS zone this year at Imola and it was just about right. Watch Hamilton's onboard of his fight back to P2. He was ok against the first McLaren and Ferrari but took several attempts to get by the other McLaren and Ferrari. Even with a quick car, it wasn't easy to overtake if the other driver got the last two corners just right. So DRS wasn't a free pass, it needed a bit of work against quick cars which is how it should be.
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mzso
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Sadly, DRS is just plain necessary these days. Maybe next year it'll become pointless, if we're lucky.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Unf wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:48 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:16 pm


It's almost unbelievable how much ground he made up down the strait. He took 9 tenths out of Ric.
Incredible overtaking... with magic button called "DRS" which cause that guy in front can do literally nothing to defend himself. Rubbish.
Others had DRS and fresh tyres too.

In this case I like the fact that DRS takes fast cars out of slow car fights. I'm not interested in that. I want to see fast cars at the front frighting other fast cars so I love DRS when it does that while make it not too easy for similarly shod cars to pass each other.
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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:13 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:37 pm
...

Not "proper" as in coming off the last corner at racing speed having struggled to stay close enough behind the car in front through two fast corners.

The overtake at the start was a pure question of who got the best launch off the line. At a restart, the cars are nose to tail and so basically start in the tow position when the hammer is dropped.

DRS exists because without it, the current cars would struggle to overtake at all. We'd go back to races where cars sat behind each other lap after lap after lap. It was dull as ditch water. DRS is a sticking plaster, yes, but it's better than the alternative.
An overtake on track IS proper no ifs and or buts. You don't need corners to call a pass on a straight a proper overtake, that is just plain nonsense. The only non-proper overtake is one in the pits,.

All I've pointed out is that Max and Yuki overtook Lewis on track without DRS and people are now saying it wasn't proper? So it was improper? They need to give it back? And what's the deal with pointing out why DRS needs to exist? Did I say that it doesn't? Nope.

People here seem to think the Mercedes had superior race pace, but on the contrary, I think Ham just benefitted from the tow and DRS and being less held up by backmarkers. When Ham didn't have DRS at his disposal he got passed by Max and Yuki. And since Ham was in front, it must mean they were fast enough to get by.
No need to get hysteric about it, I even put the word in quotation marks, so i don't even know where you got the "give it back" stuff from? lol

Just_a_fan mostly said it all but i'll still add my thoughts on it:

Back when we had little to no overtaking on some tracks despite DRS no one counted the change of positions at the start, the first lap was usually excluded from those observations, not because anyone would deny that it's an overtake by most definitions of the term (if you can make it stick), but because the nature and quality of it is very different to hunting down a car, lining it up for an overtake (with or without DRS) or pushing the other driver into a mistake.

Passing at the start requires a different skillset and/or is the result of very different circumstances to overtakes mid stint - that's just a fact - and it's definitely a lot harder to stay close to other cars lap after lap, especially with the current tyres, than to gain positions that way.

Speaking of "making it stick" though, no one should count an overtaking attempt which results in a spin as an overtake - so Tsunoda arguably never fully completed the overtake on Hamilton (afaik the overtake is officially just counted when the position change stands at the end of the lap).

And concluding that a car has better pace than another just because it had a better start (especially in the wet) or managed to jump it at a restart (potentially with big differences in tyre temperatures) is just ... wrong.

p.s.: The European GP 2009 officially, as per FIA, had ZERO overtakes, if you watch a replay of the race start however there were changes of position there, weird huh?

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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:50 pm
p.s.: The European GP 2009 officially, as per FIA, had ZERO overtakes, if you watch a replay of the race start however there were changes of position there, weird huh?
Facts, They can be such pesky little things sometimes!
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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:50 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:13 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:37 pm
...

Not "proper" as in coming off the last corner at racing speed having struggled to stay close enough behind the car in front through two fast corners.

The overtake at the start was a pure question of who got the best launch off the line. At a restart, the cars are nose to tail and so basically start in the tow position when the hammer is dropped.

DRS exists because without it, the current cars would struggle to overtake at all. We'd go back to races where cars sat behind each other lap after lap after lap. It was dull as ditch water. DRS is a sticking plaster, yes, but it's better than the alternative.
An overtake on track IS proper no ifs and or buts. You don't need corners to call a pass on a straight a proper overtake, that is just plain nonsense. The only non-proper overtake is one in the pits,.

All I've pointed out is that Max and Yuki overtook Lewis on track without DRS and people are now saying it wasn't proper? So it was improper? They need to give it back? And what's the deal with pointing out why DRS needs to exist? Did I say that it doesn't? Nope.

People here seem to think the Mercedes had superior race pace, but on the contrary, I think Ham just benefitted from the tow and DRS and being less held up by backmarkers. When Ham didn't have DRS at his disposal he got passed by Max and Yuki. And since Ham was in front, it must mean they were fast enough to get by.
No need to get hysteric about it, I even put the word in quotation marks, so i don't even know where you got the "give it back" stuff from? lol

Just_a_fan mostly said it all but i'll still add my thoughts on it:

Back when we had little to no overtaking on some tracks despite DRS no one counted the change of positions at the start, the first lap was usually excluded from those observations, not because anyone would deny that it's an overtake by most definitions of the term (if you can make it stick), but because the nature and quality of it is very different to hunting down a car, lining it up for an overtake (with or without DRS) or pushing the other driver into a mistake.

Passing at the start requires a different skillset and/or is the result of very different circumstances to overtakes mid stint - that's just a fact - and it's definitely a lot harder to stay close to other cars lap after lap, especially with the current tyres, than to gain positions that way.

Speaking of "making it stick" though, no one should count an overtaking attempt which results in a spin as an overtake - so Tsunoda arguably never fully completed the overtake on Hamilton (afaik the overtake is officially just counted when the position change stands at the end of the lap).

And concluding that a car has better pace than another just because it had a better start (especially in the wet) or managed to jump it at a restart (potentially with big differences in tyre temperatures) is just ... wrong.

p.s.: The European GP 2009 officially, as per FIA, had ZERO overtakes, if you watch a replay of the race start however there were changes of position there, weird huh?
Hysteri? Dude, I never concluded that race pace was determined at the starts. Why you putting words in my mouth. That is just plain... wrong. I'm saying DRS doesn't count for race pace if the leading car isn't benefitting from it but a chasing car in fourth is and overtakes 3rd and 2nd.

And yes, a pass doesn't mean much if you can't finish ahead of the car you just passed, I already pointed that out.

Fact is, Verstappen started 3rd, and was in 1st after the first corner. And won the race. So you and Dan are free to think that the race was won without Max overtaking Hamilton, that it's a different kind of skill required to do that but not a proper racing skill. Call it whatever you like, but the fact is the race was won after the first corner and Hamilton lost. 21 years from now that fact won't change.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Well this bit here "[...]people are now saying it wasn't proper? So it was improper? They need to give it back?" seems a bit hysteric and incoherent/random to me, yes.

The last part, to me at least, seemed to imply that RBR had better race pace than Mercedes and the only reason you mentioned was Max/Yuki passing Lewis at the (re)start - so might be that i misinterpreted what you wrote + you've clarified it now and i was apparently mistaken.

DRS is irrelevant for comparing raw race pace, mainly because you're usually stuck in traffic when you're in a position to benefit from it, and any gains made down the straight are def. less impactful than the time loss of being stuck throughout the remainder of the lap, which is obvious when looking at how fast cars can open up a gap after getting past - so being able to overtake, even with DRS, shows that the pace of the car is really good, afaik the necessary performance delta in Imola was more than one second, being able to stay close to other cars without cooking the tyres also shows that it works well.

Realistically the only laps where one can compare the actual pace are those in free air, but without having the complete onboards from the race including timing sheets it's hard to come to a proper conclusion but it at least appeared like Lewis was catching Max towards the end of the first stint and until his fauxpas in traffic on dry tyres once he got them up to temps (part of it was of course due to traffic as well). After the race both teams (RBR and Merc) even said that the Merc was the faster car in those particular mixed conditions

Max gained positions because he pulled off the best start which won him the race, so he did best where it mattered and in doing so he passed two cars but those weren't overtakes in any traditional meaning of the word, so it was completely irrelevant in the context of the previous discussion, which was about DRS and whether it made overtaking too easy or not but you seem to think it's about making petty remarks about who won and who didn't or about us trying to devalue Max' win, when it was truly never about that - not everyone is stuck thinking in those categories.

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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:37 pm
Realistically the only laps where one can compare the actual pace are those in free air, but without having the complete onboards from the race including timing sheets it's hard to come to a proper conclusion but it at least appeared like Lewis was catching Max towards the end of the first stint and until his fauxpas in traffic on dry tyres once he got them up to temps (part of it was of course due to traffic as well). After the race both teams (RBR and Merc) even said that the Merc was the faster car in those particular mixed conditions
I went through this topic in detail shortly after the race, but it was conveniently ignored by some.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29778&p=965531#p965531

viewtopic.php?p=965568#p965568
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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Whoa dude cool it with those facts smh ... jokes aside, thanks for linking it i missed it, must've gotten swamped in a sea of pointless and flippant bickering about which driver sucks more.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:27 pm


Fact is, Verstappen started 3rd, and was in 1st after the first corner. And won the race. So you and Dan are free to think that the race was won without Max overtaking Hamilton, that it's a different kind of skill required to do that but not a proper racing skill. Call it whatever you like, but the fact is the race was won after the first corner and Hamilton lost. 21 years from now that fact won't change.
They do have a point though.
First lap passes are not considered highly when it comes to passes for the win. In this case it was a matter of getting a great launch and defending the line - which Max did to perfection - but first lap passes generally have external factors and genral disorder involved.
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:27 pm


Fact is, Verstappen started 3rd, and was in 1st after the first corner. And won the race. So you and Dan are free to think that the race was won without Max overtaking Hamilton, that it's a different kind of skill required to do that but not a proper racing skill. Call it whatever you like, but the fact is the race was won after the first corner and Hamilton lost. 21 years from now that fact won't change.
They do have a point though.
First lap passes are not considered highly when it comes to passes for the win. In this case it was a matter of getting a great launch and defending the line - which Max did to perfection - but first lap passes generally have external factors and genral disorder involved.
Verstappen’s launch drew him level with Hamilton, it did not drag him in front. Hamilton could have kept the lead at the start, but he failed to defend the inside line properly.

If Hamilton defended the inside line properly, he would have kept the lead.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2021/ ... start.html

Hamilton could do nothing. He was mugged from both sides. Max took a risk of going on the edge of the track it would have been a disaster if Hamilton chopped across. At the least Pereze would have gotten past before Ham and Max crash (singapore 2017).

Once Max had the inside line and was surging ahead anway, Ham could have yielded, but that is not how the mind of a 7-time champion works!
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Kingshark
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 2:15 am
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2021/ ... start.html

Hamilton could do nothing. He was mugged from both sides. Max took a risk of going on the edge of the track it would have been a disaster if Hamilton chopped across. At the least Pereze would have gotten past before Ham and Max crash (singapore 2017).

Once Max had the inside line and was surging ahead anway, Ham could have yielded, but that is not how the mind of a 7-time champion works!
Hamilton should have positioned his car firmly on the inside instead of drifting to the right and allowing the space down the inside. His mistake was paying attention to Perez instead of Verstappen.

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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

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Nah he got mugged by fast starting RedBulls. Nothing he could have done. It was Vettel Kimi Max Singapore 2017 basically. Except this time Perez kept a straight wheell and the middle guy didn't drop back.

Its an OK situation. Ham had the race pace he could have easily won. So the real mistake was passing Russell into that damp zone. Still leading the championship and the car should be returning to dominanfe in a few races so its all good.
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