2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

[214270]

He must have made a mistake

Dear oh dear, not again.

I don’t know for sure he did because I don’t think it was shown but it’s surely the only explanation. His star is fading a tiny bit since the Sakhir GP.

Lap 59 it seems.

[JordanMugen]

I dont understand the cries to change Bottas to a faster driver coming from the same persons that are saying the Mercedes is ahead?
So they want Mercedes to be even stronger now? Strange. I thought they wanted Merc to be slower?

Both Mercedes and Red Bull need the best possible drivers in both cars. It is the best way to go.

Be it Leclerc, Russell, Norris et al. get them in the top car pronto.

PS. I am as surprised as anybody that Ricciardo and Alonso have seemingly dropped down a notch, and Sainz is close to Leclerc.

Perhaps Ocon & Sainz can be placed with Leclerc in the speediest echelon of F1 drivers too, and thus it is foolish for them to be overlooked for Mercedes and Red Bull drives?

[MKlaus]

I'm not offended. I just think its objectively not true to say Bottas and Mazepin are on the same level, or anything like it. If they were, Bottas would have been out on his ear at Mercedes years ago, because there would be no sense in flushing millions of dollars down the toilet every year employing him, instead of any old rookie driver fresh out of a reasonable performance in a junior formula.

the reality is, he is being saved by his team mate, who is simply so far ahead on performance that, he balances the wcc also, even if bottas is finishing 3rd or 4th or 5th in a season. not just that bottas is made to look good by the car on his part, but also largely by his team mate, because his team mate is seemingly making full use of the machinery available. if his team mate's contributions would have been any less than that, bottas would have looked far worse off due to difficult wcc situation. like i said earlier, he is also lucky that, mercedes' nearest rival has someone similar to him on the other car for all these years now which is also another contributing factor. when ferrari was a contender, it was kimi that was equally poor and when red bull became contender, it was the likes of gasly, albon and now perez. put all these things together and then look at the larger picture of bottas, it isn't too far off to say he is mazepin. in gasly and albon's favor, one can argue they had extremely difficult cars at their disposal, but that can't be said of bottas.

I just can't agree with your assessment of his talent. Obviously I'm not going to claim anything silly like he's a top tier driver but for me he's comfortably middle of the pack. As I said, Mercedes aren't stupid or a charity and they don't owe him a living. If he were anything like as bad as you say, he just wouldn't be in the car. They have had plenty of much cheaper options available for several years if it was just as simple as sticking any old driver in there and racking up podiums. Why wouldn't they have given the seat to Vandoorne, Wehrlein or any number of other drivers for a fraction of the cost?

mercedes cars have been so far ahead with one driver doing all the job required and all they need is another driver who can complete the formalities because they liked bottas for the fact that he doesn't demand anything and is content in accepting his secondary position. mercedes got so spooked with rosberg doing whatever he did, that fear has made them happy to have a soft guy doing bare necessities. that doesn't necessarily means they would be happy with his performance.
they already tried to bring george for 2021, but claire didn't let him go. with 2022 regulations and the pecking order so open, i am not sure mercedes feels confident in going ahead with just one good driver.
imagine if ferrari comes good next year with already having made a big jump, they have two strong drivers who can make a big difference. where would that leave mercedes. budget restrictions means, they can't churn upgrades like they have done up until now and it needs both drivers doing best possible job. its not that toto isn't aware of this.

[Phil]

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car.

I find that one hard to argue, given in qualifying pace, aka "ultimate pace", the two cars are clearly on the same level. Maybe Verstappen (like Bottas) simply can't preserve the tires as well as Hamilton? Perhaps it's Hamilton who is driving in an extraordinary way that is keeping the tires in that state that allows him to compete for these type of wins?

Second theory, is that the Mercedes is simply better at preserving the tires (though that would still put a question mark at Bottas performance in tire management) relative to the RedBull - a bit like a consequence of striving for ultimate speed on Saturday and compromising tire deg on sundays.

In my opinion - the truth is somewhere in between. The Merc might be a bit kinder to the tires on race day, but Hamilton is certainly part of that factor. It would be great to see Perez more competitive - it might put that into better perspective that a slightly different driving style might result in equal pace and tire deg at the same time.

[Jolle]

I dont understand the cries to change Bottas to a faster driver coming from the same persons that are saying the Mercedes is ahead?
So they want Mercedes to be even stronger now? Strange. I thought they wanted Merc to be slower?

Both Mercedes and Red Bull need the best possible drivers in both cars. It is the best way to go.

Be it Leclerc, Russell, Norris et al. get them in the top car pronto.

PS. I am as surprised as anybody that Ricciardo and Alonso have seemingly dropped down a notch, and Sainz is close to Leclerc.

Perhaps Ocon & Sainz can be placed with Leclerc in the speediest echelon of F1 drivers too, and thus it is foolish for them to be overlooked for Mercedes and Red Bull drives?

For a team the best drivers aren't always the fastest drivers. I think that RedBull is paying the price a bit with Perez, he's still adjusting to the car and the team, using Verstappen's setups. Bottas on the other hand is already very established within the team, probably having much more input at setup changes and working as a team instead of following.

[DChemTech]

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car.

I find that one hard to argue, given in qualifying pace, aka "ultimate pace", the two cars are clearly on the same level. Maybe Verstappen (like Bottas) simply can't preserve the tires as well as Hamilton? Perhaps it's Hamilton who is driving in an extraordinary way that is keeping the tires in that state that allows him to compete for these type of wins?

Second theory, is that the Mercedes is simply better at preserving the tires (though that would still put a question mark at Bottas performance in tire management) relative to the RedBull - a bit like a consequence of striving for ultimate speed on Saturday and compromising tire deg on sundays.

In my opinion - the truth is somewhere in between. The Merc might be a bit kinder to the tires on race day, but Hamilton is certainly part of that factor. It would be great to see Perez more competitive - it might put that into better perspective that a slightly different driving style might result in equal pace and tire deg at the same time.

A good ultimate pace is no guarantee for a good race-pace. Usain Bolt has a great ultimate pace, but is likely a rather mediocre marathon runner. Under the assumption that Hamilton is a better driver than Bottas (which I think is acceptable), it simply leads to the conclusion that the Mercedes is better, at least in the longer run. If the reason that Bottas performs worse than Hamilton is due to tire management, I don't know, it could be. And by no means do I disregard the performance of Hamilton, he's a stellar driver. I just don't agree with the assessment that the difference between Verstappen and Hamilton is purely driver competence, as some imply.

I am with you that the truth is inbetween, but think Verstappen is, given the limitations of the cars, quite close to Hamilton. Hamilton is cleaner and possibly kinder to the tires (although, could be due to the car - hard to say), Verstappen a bit more aggressive, which in Imola played in his advantage, in Portimao did not (and this time, was rather indifferent towards the result). But without a proper benchmark, it remains at best an educated guess how much the relative contribution of drivers and cars is, of tire management vs inherent tire-friendliness of the cars, etc.

[Sieper]

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car.

I find that one hard to argue, given in qualifying pace, aka "ultimate pace", the two cars are clearly on the same level. Maybe Verstappen (like Bottas) simply can't preserve the tires as well as Hamilton? Perhaps it's Hamilton who is driving in an extraordinary way that is keeping the tires in that state that allows him to compete for these type of wins?

Second theory, is that the Mercedes is simply better at preserving the tires (though that would still put a question mark at Bottas performance in tire management) relative to the RedBull - a bit like a consequence of striving for ultimate speed on Saturday and compromising tire deg on sundays.

In my opinion - the truth is somewhere in between. The Merc might be a bit kinder to the tires on race day, but Hamilton is certainly part of that factor. It would be great to see Perez more competitive - it might put that into better perspective that a slightly different driving style might result in equal pace and tire deg at the same time.

Verstappen puts the RB16B almost on pole, missed by a 3 hundreds. Hamilton is 15 hundreds quicker than Bottas. Perez was way further back. I accept Perez had a poor qualy but still. I don’t think, even over 1 lap, the cars are equal. Not that far off, but a bit and imho harder to wrangle to a good time. Max in portimao had that little step out that cost pole. Perez spun out on the same place, during FP.

In every race so far (bar Imola, and that was wet) we had 2 mercs up there, 1 Bull.

I do think Hamilton is very good at getting pace out of the car, but he also has the strategy advantage. And he knows it. Otherwise he would have potentially gambled at the start (like in the past in Mexico f.e.). Otoh, season is long and you can’t afford to crash when it can be avoided. Max just Hadith better start. Hamilton also admitted that is something Merc needs to work at.

Max usually is very fair when it comes to guesstimating car performance and he thinks Merc is quicker. Ok, this is “good” for him, true, but I listen to what he says, it is almost never off.

[Jolle]

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car.

I find that one hard to argue, given in qualifying pace, aka "ultimate pace", the two cars are clearly on the same level. Maybe Verstappen (like Bottas) simply can't preserve the tires as well as Hamilton? Perhaps it's Hamilton who is driving in an extraordinary way that is keeping the tires in that state that allows him to compete for these type of wins?

Second theory, is that the Mercedes is simply better at preserving the tires (though that would still put a question mark at Bottas performance in tire management) relative to the RedBull - a bit like a consequence of striving for ultimate speed on Saturday and compromising tire deg on sundays.

In my opinion - the truth is somewhere in between. The Merc might be a bit kinder to the tires on race day, but Hamilton is certainly part of that factor. It would be great to see Perez more competitive - it might put that into better perspective that a slightly different driving style might result in equal pace and tire deg at the same time.

A good ultimate pace is no guarantee for a good race-pace. Usain Bolt has a great ultimate pace, but is likely a rather mediocre marathon runner. Under the assumption that Hamilton is a better driver than Bottas (which I think is acceptable), it simply leads to the conclusion that the Mercedes is better, at least in the longer run. If the reason that Bottas performs worse than Hamilton is due to tire management, I don't know, it could be. And by no means do I disregard the performance of Hamilton, he's a stellar driver. I just don't agree with the assessment that the difference between Verstappen and Hamilton is purely driver competence, as some imply.

I am with you that the truth is inbetween, but think Verstappen is, given the limitations of the cars, quite close to Hamilton. Hamilton is cleaner and possibly kinder to the tires (although, could be due to the car - hard to say), Verstappen a bit more aggressive, which in Imola played in his advantage, in Portimao did not (and this time, was rather indifferent towards the result). But without a proper benchmark, it remains at best an educated guess how much the relative contribution of drivers and cars is, of tire management vs inherent tire-friendliness of the cars, etc.

Don't forget that Mercedes has Allison for quite some time now and he is known (all the way back from his Enstone years) for setting up cars that are very good on tires.

[PlatinumZealot]

RBR strategy lost Max the race. They should have put him on brand new Softs after Ham had pitted the second time.

It wasn't the strategy, max didn't have the pace. Lewis spent an obscene amount of time on Max's gearbox well within the undercut envelope.

Max definitely didn’t have the pace compared to Hamilton. That’s why a different strategy maybe could have had another impact (Softs vs. Mediums), but Lewis was just too fast yesterday. His relentless following right around the DRS-range for the majority of the race and without any meaningful drop of pace was scary.

Hamilton is a pace beast in Barcelona. Max could do similar lap times too, but his line were punishing his tyres.

In clean air after Max pits Hamilton only did 23.2s not much faster than what Max was doing. He basically pressured Max into the pits. Max fould have stuck it out it he had focused on preserving tyres. I really eas doubting hwther Lewis could pass in that first stint.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

[Phil]

I suppose my point is, is that why Hamilton is that good, is experience and how he has learned to drive these tires in a way that allows him to be quick, but retain good wear. If and how much you rate that, sort of depends how much people rate Bottas. One lap pace he certainly is close, but no where in race pace, which concludes that Hamilton is doing something quite a bit better than his team-mate.

It wouldn't far fetched to believe that Verstappen lacks this, or simply drives different, which may conclude the difference in tire wear and thus performance in race trim.

Peter Windsor (peterwindsor on youtube) has some good videos on the difference in how they drive and extract performance.

[NathanOlder]

Anyone that can't see Bottas is doing the job Mercedes employ him to do is surely not watching the same sport as me. Yes he is not as fast as Hamilton (and terrible in the wet) but otherwise he is on the podium, and always there to help Mercedes win races such as this one with strategy. Saying he is on par with Mazepin is genuinely brain-dead. He is almost always close to Lewis in qualifying, and maybe in the race he is 10s down the road, but 0.15s per lap slower than Lewis still puts him above a lot of people on the grid.

Amazed this is even a discussion to be honest. He had that terrible race in Imola, but otherwise has done what the team need him to do. Yes he got stuck behind Sainz, but its almost impossible to overtake here and was always a risk.

Stop talking such lies!
It was Leclerc he got stuck behind But yes, totally agree, the only reason Bottas gets so much stick, is because he is unable to challenge Lewis regularly in my opinon. Thats askng him to beat (possibly) the best driver of all time. It's like saying Luis Suarez is rubbish, because he couldn't score as many as Messi. (keeping that last comment on topic, as they both played together at Barcelona )

[Juzh]

RBR strategy lost Max the race. They should have put him on brand new Softs after Ham had pitted the second time.

They would have to pull a 1.4s pitstop for that. Hamilton gained 0.8s trough second and third sector alone. Add a few tenths trough first sector out the box and there's not way you can cover than undercut.

I was not thinking of covering the undercut, but pitting for new Softs a couple of laps after Lewis and then overtaking him on track. Then Max would have had some 15 or so laps fresher Softs than the Mediums he had before pitting. But thinking again, even if he had overtaken Hamilton with those new Softs, he probably could have not stayed in front anyway - Hamilton would have overtaken him eventually. His pace on the Mediums was crazy.

They could try that, but they'd willingly give up a position to a faster car. I don't think Verstappen had nearly enough to pace to catch Hamilton, let alone pass him.

[NathanOlder]

They would have to pull a 1.4s pitstop for that. Hamilton gained 0.8s trough second and third sector alone. Add a few tenths trough first sector out the box and there's not way you can cover than undercut.

I was not thinking of covering the undercut, but pitting for new Softs a couple of laps after Lewis and then overtaking him on track. Then Max would have had some 15 or so laps fresher Softs than the Mediums he had before pitting. But thinking again, even if he had overtaken Hamilton with those new Softs, he probably could have not stayed in front anyway - Hamilton would have overtaken him eventually. His pace on the Mediums was crazy.

They could try that, but they'd willingly give up a position to a faster car. I don't think Verstappen had nearly enough to pace to catch Hamilton, let alone pass him.

I dont think the soft tyres would have liked 15 push laps either.

[Sieper]

I was not thinking of covering the undercut, but pitting for new Softs a couple of laps after Lewis and then overtaking him on track. Then Max would have had some 15 or so laps fresher Softs than the Mediums he had before pitting. But thinking again, even if he had overtaken Hamilton with those new Softs, he probably could have not stayed in front anyway - Hamilton would have overtaken him eventually. His pace on the Mediums was crazy.

They could try that, but they'd willingly give up a position to a faster car. I don't think Verstappen had nearly enough to pace to catch Hamilton, let alone pass him.

I dont think the soft tyres would have liked 15 push laps either.

No, that was indeed never going to happen. It was just a planned 1 stopper, red yellow, they trained for that also (to test it) with 1 set of yellows. The red set was spared in Q2 as Max set a fast time and didn't do a second "training" trackgaging run. So that was just a spare set for a possible late SC or for trying a fastest lap should the situation arise. imho. exactly like how it played out.

[tangodjango]

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car.

I find that one hard to argue, given in qualifying pace, aka "ultimate pace", the two cars are clearly on the same level. Maybe Verstappen (like Bottas) simply can't preserve the tires as well as Hamilton? Perhaps it's Hamilton who is driving in an extraordinary way that is keeping the tires in that state that allows him to compete for these type of wins?

Second theory, is that the Mercedes is simply better at preserving the tires (though that would still put a question mark at Bottas performance in tire management) relative to the RedBull - a bit like a consequence of striving for ultimate speed on Saturday and compromising tire deg on sundays.

In my opinion - the truth is somewhere in between. The Merc might be a bit kinder to the tires on race day, but Hamilton is certainly part of that factor. It would be great to see Perez more competitive - it might put that into better perspective that a slightly different driving style might result in equal pace and tire deg at the same time.

A good ultimate pace is no guarantee for a good race-pace. Usain Bolt has a great ultimate pace, but is likely a rather mediocre marathon runner. Under the assumption that Hamilton is a better driver than Bottas (which I think is acceptable), it simply leads to the conclusion that the Mercedes is better, at least in the longer run. If the reason that Bottas performs worse than Hamilton is due to tire management, I don't know, it could be. And by no means do I disregard the performance of Hamilton, he's a stellar driver. I just don't agree with the assessment that the difference between Verstappen and Hamilton is purely driver competence, as some imply.

I am with you that the truth is inbetween, but think Verstappen is, given the limitations of the cars, quite close to Hamilton. Hamilton is cleaner and possibly kinder to the tires (although, could be due to the car - hard to say), Verstappen a bit more aggressive, which in Imola played in his advantage, in Portimao did not (and this time, was rather indifferent towards the result). But without a proper benchmark, it remains at best an educated guess how much the relative contribution of drivers and cars is, of tire management vs inherent tire-friendliness of the cars, etc.

Well written. At least the BS that Verstappen would walk over Hamilton, even if he had a car two-tenths slower has been put to bed.