2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Therein lies the problem.

X my driver is best. Fact A happens. Yes, I know this. Let’s think of some way to explain this away that benefits my driver. The utmost. If I can include a dig to the other driver at the same time. Even better.

So if this is your thought process, we’ve all heard it before a thousand times. You are not convincing anyone, not even your peers, as we all know it is a sell that you are trying to make.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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This is pretty relevant to the current topic, and most likely why no one was willing the run the hards.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... hwWhu.html

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173 101 99 7

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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I don’t know how accurate that is, but it seems totally accurate, nobody Ran the whites and this chart makes it indeed blatantly obvious why. Pirelli brought too hard of a tire choice it seems. The white was simply a no go.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Sieper wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:20 pm
I don’t know how accurate that is, but it seems totally accurate, nobody Ran the whites and this chart makes it indeed blatantly obvious why. Pirelli brought too hard of a tire choice it seems. The white was simply a no go.
Think of them more as idealistic trends. In reality the degradation will be different from team to team, and even driver to driver, but the trend will be the same.

It's basically saying no one ran the hard because it was so slow.
173 101 99 7

sosic2121
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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sosic2121 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:58 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:31 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:03 am
But you fail to mention that he also lost against Button and Rosberg, and that it was 109=109 against Alonso and his physiotherapist(I would rather say that both them lost that year).

Also one has remember that Lewis had a car capable of winning in every season since he joined, 15 years! 😳😳
When I say beat, I meant he was 2.1 up against Button, and 3.1 up against Rosberg. As for Alonso in 07, if Kimi was removed from the final standings, who would have won the title ? (clue, it wasnt Alonso)
Why don't we remove team bias and penalty for Hungary fiasco. but we can't, just as we can't remove that gravel pit.
p. s. I thought button won more points while they drove together :?

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Scorpaguy
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:13 am
Scorpaguy wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:54 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:42 am

That is quite possible to do to some extent if you have a trained eye. The things the drivers do in different situations.

For example is easily saw Vettel was not a true elite in his RedBull. I know he was fast qualifier. I could not measure that of course to say he was not. But he drove in standard ways.

Charles Leclerc is someone I saw as an elite in his Sauber days. I even made a thread about it because he was doing unnatural things in that car.

Currently, Max is quick, aggressive, clinical.. But he does not yet possess the tool set or the "moves set" of Lewis Hamilton. He is yet to evolve to be Lewis Equal. He will be one day, but not while Lewis is racing near his prime. It will be when Lewis is old and washed up. (Max at 8 years experience is maybe another two years where he will be in his prime at age 26. A very young prime. Lewis will be 38 - 39. Nothing to compare Lewis speed and reactions will be well degraded.

Battling Lewis now is good experience for Max to take on his contemooraries like Leclerc/Russel when the time comes.
PZ...I can agree with most of that, maybe even all in theory. Something that always bothers me is that when discussing Vet's WDC's..."it was the car". When discussing Ham's..."it is Ham and Bot is very good as well".

I tend to believe multiple WDC's can also be attributed to a good car, a great driver, and a proper chemistry twixt the 2. Vet was the one pushing the pedals and and turning the wheel...he won all 4 of his WDC's. MW had the opportunity and did not. Vet and the Bull were a good match.

Thus, Bot has had the same opportunities as Ham...Ham delivered, Bot, not so much.

Conversely, neither Ham nor Vet would gave won any titles in a grid dog.

A huge nod to your comments on Ham's cerebral qualities...definitely MSC-esc or better (and that aspect is still improving).

All that said...I want to see Ham and Max on equal footing. Master vs the Prodigy. Assuming the car suits them, I sense it an epic battle.

Marble
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:49 pm
This is pretty relevant to the current topic, and most likely why no one was willing the run the hards.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... hwWhu.html

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.png
That y-axis makes no sense whatsoever... I mean, tyre drop-off in "s", as in seconds? Also, there's no way the hard tyre gives up so much more performance in the opening laps of a stint, what it's rather obviously trying to display instead is the relative perf. of each compound throughout a run, but since pace is also fuel load dependent, the y-axis comes out as complete gibberish.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Marble wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:41 pm
Interesting telemetry data here :

https://blog.autoplus.fr/moncet/2021/05 ... trategies/

Translation :

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... ategies%2F
Thanks. Shows that Perez is losing to Max heavily in braking or confidence with the car. He is pretty close everywhere else.

As confirmed. Hamilton ran with a setup biased for the race. Definitely compromised his qualifying. He will take a positive from it knowing that he was still able to not only take pole but make passes with the set-up on a track that is difficult to overtake. Not saying it will work for Monaco however. Tire deg is almost zero there.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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New rules for testing bending of the rear wing.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/84037/af ... -test.html

This is called political warfare in Formula 1.
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FWandE
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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I see a lot of discussion here and elsewhere about Lewis Hamilton's performance vs various other drivers past and present. I have to say that I find most of it to be absurdly partisan with people cherry-picking the statistics and historic records they prefer in order to argue for or against one driver or the other.

The best way to compare drivers is for them to be in the same car at the same time and racing each other. Even then pit stop strategy (called by the team), safety cars, other drivers (crashing into them, holding them up deliberately or otherwise, causing yellow or red flags, etc), mechanical & software failures, etc can affect the outcome of a race or season. So even if this were possible it will also be an imperfect comparison.

Given that direct comparison is not possible and also imperfect the next best option is to look at performance over a whole career making sure to take account of mitigating factors like early death/retirement.

I find this table of statistics very useful and illuminating. I hope it posts successfully.
It has what I consider to be the nine most successful F1 drivers of all time.
Obviously, others could be included, Brabham, Piquet, etc but I think most would include these in their top dozen most successful drivers. This is not a most entertaining driver or fastest driver list so it doesn't include, for example, Moss, Mansell, Hunt or Villeneuve

For each statistical category, the top 4 (of these 9) are indicated with green background. Dark for 1st light for 4th.
There is a great deal that goes into being a successful driver. Speed is important and is demonstrated by pole positions and fastest laps. Consistency is important and is demonstrated by podium finishes & the percentage of race wins as well as championships. The ability to set up the car for a race, not just qualifying, is also important and is covered here by comparing pole position stats with race win & podium stats. Other factors are less well covered here like political skills (getting into the best team, negotiating leading driver contract, etc).

A number of things are very striking in the table & we could spend hours discussing but I'll let you look and form your own opinions. It helps to bear a few things in mind.
1. Drivers from the 1950s & '60s drove fewer races so their total numbers are less, but looking at the percentage wins, podiums, etc shows how good Fangio and Clark were. (Jim Clark doesn't get the credit he deserves in the mainstream media IMO).
2. Drivers from the 1990s,2000s & 2010s drove more races which makes it easier to get bigger totals but harder to get high percentage numbers.

The issue of "who is the best F1 driver" can never be settled but these and other statistics show that Hamilton deserves to be considered the best of his era. It would be such a joy to watch a race weekend with equal equipment between these nine plus another dozen or so from the past. Who would you include in such a race?

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djones
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Some would call it political warfare. I'd call it desperation from Redbull if they have indeed made a wing flex within the current testing methods.

And I know I know... it's not cheating if it passes the tests. But is an athlete who uses a new drug that cannot be tested for cheating, or just working within the rules? That is only ever subjective and everybody will have their own opinion.

cheeRS
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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djones wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:23 pm
Some would call it political warfare. I'd call it desperation from Redbull if they have indeed made a wing flex within the current testing methods.

And I know I know... it's not cheating if it passes the tests. But is an athlete who uses a new drug that cannot be tested for cheating, or just working within the rules? That is only ever subjective and everybody will have their own opinion.
In that case, all teams are cheating then. All teams have wings that flex..... if enough load is applied to them.

If the rules, for instance, call for a wing that bends no more than 5 degrees when 100kg of load is applied to the middle, and Red Bulls wing doesn't bend until 101kg is applied, is that cheating? If all the other teams' wings don't bend until 150kg, but Red Bulls' wing bends at 101kg, so it flexes more over a lap, is Red Bull cheating?

Working within the rules is never cheating is by definition can only be objective, unless there is no subjective way to test the rule (in which case there isn't really rule; it's a guideline at best).

Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Redbull is working in the grey and that’s their obligation. I don’t think it’s wrong, they met the rule (testing requirements). Did they meet the “spirit of the rules”? No, but “spirit of the rules” is bs. You build to the ruler that FIA or whatever sanctioning body is using and everything else is free.

The ruler is changing, so they’ll have to build to the new rule set. Simple as that. Good on RB for getting away with it for this long.

nokivasara
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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cheeRS wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:18 pm
djones wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:23 pm
Some would call it political warfare. I'd call it desperation from Redbull if they have indeed made a wing flex within the current testing methods.

And I know I know... it's not cheating if it passes the tests. But is an athlete who uses a new drug that cannot be tested for cheating, or just working within the rules? That is only ever subjective and everybody will have their own opinion.
In that case, all teams are cheating then. All teams have wings that flex..... if enough load is applied to them.

If the rules, for instance, call for a wing that bends no more than 5 degrees when 100kg of load is applied to the middle, and Red Bulls wing doesn't bend until 101kg is applied, is that cheating? If all the other teams' wings don't bend until 150kg, but Red Bulls' wing bends at 101kg, so it flexes more over a lap, is Red Bull cheating?

Working within the rules is never cheating is by definition can only be objective, unless there is no subjective way to test the rule (in which case there isn't really rule; it's a guideline at best).
Also the rules are written in a way that often leaves room for exploiting "gray" areas. I think these things have always been a big part of F1, it keeps the teams on their toes :)