2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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dans79 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:27 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:24 pm
Yes, but if you can’t define it, then it doesn’t matter.

This is ubiquitous in racing at all levels. There is no such rule as “spirit”. Also, nothing is completely rigid. So the game is “how much is too much?” And if it isn’t defined, then it’s open game.
In the end none of it really matters, as the FIA has already decided they're going to introduce new more stringent tests.
Exactly. Either it is banned or a rule made / enforced, or it’s adopted. That’s how we got to where we are with all of this. Wings, mid engine, bigger tires, etc. Some of it was specified, allowed and became the norm, or banned.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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hUirEYExbN wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:55 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:44 pm
Is it right for people to say that they are merely exploiting a grey area of the rules?
Surely this is a case of knowingly breaking the letter and spirit of the rules that bans active aero and says that aero parts should be rigidity secured, remain immobile as stated above in dans79's post.
If anything they are exploiting a grey area in the tests being used, (the tests are not currently sufficient to detect when the rules are being broken).
Letter is not being broken as it passes the requisite tests. Spirit means nothing really.
The same for the front flexi-wings!

The wings used to sag towards the end plates... That was nipped in the bud by the FIA...

Then RedBull made the front wings tilt backward on the straights.. That too was addressed by the FIA.


Now the rear wing is tilting backward... So you know what is coming next.
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Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:29 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:27 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:24 pm
Yes, but if you can’t define it, then it doesn’t matter.

This is ubiquitous in racing at all levels. There is no such rule as “spirit”. Also, nothing is completely rigid. So the game is “how much is too much?” And if it isn’t defined, then it’s open game.
In the end none of it really matters, as the FIA has already decided they're going to introduce new more stringent tests.
Exactly. Either it is banned or a rule made / enforced, or it’s adopted. That’s how we got to where we are with all of this. Wings, mid engine, bigger tires, etc. Some of it was specified, allowed and became the norm, or banned.
Very true! this got me thinking, originally active suspension and active aero had been banned because the technology was new and could be unreliable therefore unsafe, also there was a argument that it could lead to a unsustainable spending war.

But now technology has improved and it is safe enough to be on road cars, and now there's a budget cap to stop a spending war, so why don't they think about allowing active suspension and active aero for the new regs in the future.

Sorry if I'm veering too far off topic.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Ferrari has street cars with flexi wings for years.
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foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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amazing video, flex baby flex :)



PhillipM
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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They had wings tilting back like this before, that's why the FIA brought the initial tests in, looks like RB found a way to get them legal in the testing but still move a lot in reality

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 11:12 pm
amazing video, flex baby flex :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWUefSl5tI
I like it. Great video. =D>

That could be the end of the championship fight right there.
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Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:02 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 11:12 pm
amazing video, flex baby flex :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWUefSl5tI
I like it. Great video. =D>

That could be the end of the championship fight right there.
Or a new advertising slogan for Red Bull energy drinks " Red Bull gives you bendy wings" :lol:

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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In reality, "flexing" (change in the angle of attack) is even more significant for the car design philosophy. The grid in the video is fixed to the car chassis so do not include the further change in angle of attack due to softer rear suspension (a function of very high rake) which is legal but still very telling how much the rear wing angle of attack is changing for Redbull in straights.

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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I wonder what kind of gray areas the W12 operates in. The last time someone was this close to the Mercs was the Ferrari, and that turned out to have an illegal engine. The Bulls are now close but they have the benefit of flexing wings.

Hard to believe the W12 isn't packing something in the gray area as well (I mean, all good race cars do).

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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The lineage of the Mercedes cars had a strong mechanical foundations laid by Aldo Costa so if there are grey areas i suspect that is the place Mercedes has exploited those areas over the years (FRIC, DAS, holes in rims etc). I am trying to remember if Merc have ever pushed the legal boundaries in the aerodynamics though..
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mafeotul
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:34 am
The lineage of the Mercedes cars had a strong mechanical foundations laid by Aldo Costa so if there are grey areas i suspect that is the place Mercedes has exploited those areas over the years (FRIC, DAS, holes in rims etc). I am trying to remember if Merc have ever pushed the legal boundaries in the aerodynamics though..
I mean, why would they? If their basis has been so strong, all they had to do is respond or pre-empt a response based on the closest competitor. Just like this year, i am convinced they are increasing performance in a staggered way to attract RedBull into a fight of attrition over car development.

Mansell89
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Looking ahead to Monaco- how was sector 3 looking for everyone?

I think I saw a best sector 3 breakdown where Max edged out the Mercs with Ferrari a couple of tenths back.

Is this how you’d expect it to go at Monaco? I think Red Bull will get the edge on Merc there from what I’ve seen visually but looking for some more data- especially Sector 3 long runs ideally.

Ferrari not far behind

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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If there is a possibility to gain an advantage, the teams have to take it. Unless it is specifically ruled out they have to either be the first one to gain that advantage, or be close enough to understand what the advantage is, and if anything learned from it will be of use in the future, even if the actual 'item' is ruled out.
There is no wasted knowledge, just some stuff that is not used right now.
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Mansell89 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:55 am
Looking ahead to Monaco- how was sector 3 looking for everyone?

I think I saw a best sector 3 breakdown where Max edged out the Mercs with Ferrari a couple of tenths back.

Is this how you’d expect it to go at Monaco? I think Red Bull will get the edge on Merc there from what I’ve seen visually but looking for some more data- especially Sector 3 long runs ideally.

Ferrari not far behind
Im not sure on where Merc vs RedBull stand on S3. Two reasons for this, in qualifying, on their fastest laps Lewis took a tighter line in to turn 13 to avoid the gravel put there by Perez. I'm not sure if Max did the same or if it was cleaned up by someone else before he got there ?
Then in the race, when they were on equal tyres, Lewis was close to Max at the end of the back straight where S3 starts. So for the remainder of the lap he fell back with being too close with the aero turbulence so we never got to see a good comparison between the 2 drivers. If I had to pick between the 2, I would go for RedBull just as they have a shorter wheelbase.
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