2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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The cars weight increased from 605 to 740 the last decade. Drivers increased from 65 to 80 minimum and they take 110kg of racefuel now. That is about 20% weight increase and still the cars lap the same time as ever. That is more forces the keep the car in the corners and to accelerate/brake. So these Pirelli’s have to handle more energy than those Bridgestones in 2010.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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RedBull and Aston running lower pressures confirmed.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/66260 ... n-in-baku/

Trick wheels? Trick heating? Hydrocarbon refridgerant release? This is F1 so I suspect some of these things.
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:39 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:54 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:06 am


Then why say it?
Because I am asking a question rather than making an accusation. And the reason that is, is because I know how precious people on here can be.
But you said in your question, "haven't they?" Isn't that answering your own question? If you want to sound the least bit neutral you should rephrase your question. Otherwise it comes off as insinuating that they are up to something they have been accused of before. Why not instead research to see if they have in fact been proven to having fiddled with tire pressures?

The accusation you speak of was a false conjecture on the part of Ham during the 70th Anniversary Silverstone race.
"He must have less pressure in his tyres or something," Hamilton said over his team radio after falling behind the Dutchman.

F1's governing body, the FIA, can track every car's tyre pressure in real time so it is highly unlikely Hamilton's concerns are correct.


So the only explanation why Red Bull outperformed then is because they were cheating, according to Ham.
It was simple question. I suggest you have read far too much into it and shouldn't be so precious about it.

And it's a bit rich to be criticised on this sort of thing by someone who constantly throws silly accusations of cheating or underhand tactics at non Honda powered teams.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:36 pm
RedBull and Aston running lower pressures confirmed.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/66260 ... n-in-baku/

Trick wheels? Trick heating? Hydrocarbon refridgerant release? This is F1 so I suspect some of these things.
So what are we thinking? Vented hot air? scrub angle?
Am I correct in thinking I recall the 'mixture' in the tyre is highly regulated? They are not going to change the gas before returning it to Pirelli are they.
It has to be something that only happens with motion or Pirelli would have spotted it by now.
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:29 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:36 pm
RedBull and Aston running lower pressures confirmed.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/66260 ... n-in-baku/

Trick wheels? Trick heating? Hydrocarbon refridgerant release? This is F1 so I suspect some of these things.
So what are we thinking? Vented hot air? scrub angle?
Am I correct in thinking I recall the 'mixture' in the tyre is highly regulated? They are not going to change the gas before returning it to Pirelli are they.
It has to be something that only happens with motion or Pirelli would have spotted it by now.
If they are doing something, I'd assume it's something like the following.
  1. Filling the tires with air and not nitrogen. Air will yield a greater change in pressure with a change in temperature.
  2. Heat soaking the tires as long and at the maximum temperature PIrelli and the FIA will allow.
  3. Release the excess pressure to get the tires down to the minimum allowed pressure before being inspected.
  4. Ensure as much cool air as possible is flowing through the brake ducks and across the rims. This will cool the air inside the tire. (caveats about overcooking the brakes, or over cooling the tires).

This would help as well!
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Again.. Black painted... On the inside of the rim..

Its a two-way heat emitter / absorber.

Also those ridges looks like refrigeration passages to me. The hollowed reverse of the wheel spokes are not seen. You would think to reduce weight you would have this.. Farfetched... But.. Could be a cooling circuit.
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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:09 pm

It was simple question. I suggest you have read far too much into it and shouldn't be so precious about it.

And it's a bit rich to be criticised on this sort of thing by someone who constantly throws silly accusations of cheating or underhand tactics at non Honda powered teams.
Precious? Whatever that means. I'm just a keen observer. And it's quite obvious why you make the comments that you do.

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:29 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:36 pm
RedBull and Aston running lower pressures confirmed.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/66260 ... n-in-baku/

Trick wheels? Trick heating? Hydrocarbon refridgerant release? This is F1 so I suspect some of these things.
So what are we thinking? Vented hot air? scrub angle?
Am I correct in thinking I recall the 'mixture' in the tyre is highly regulated? They are not going to change the gas before returning it to Pirelli are they.
It has to be something that only happens with motion or Pirelli would have spotted it by now.
Reminds me of this:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-m ... 8/5290508/
Of course there will be those here who will defend their "tactics".

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:23 am
Reminds me of this:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-m ... 8/5290508/
Of course there will be those here who will defend their "tactics".
So, you have a problem with the FIA saying it was all perfectly legal?
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zibby43
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:32 am
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:23 am
Reminds me of this:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-m ... 8/5290508/
Of course there will be those here who will defend their "tactics".
So, you have a problem with the FIA saying it was all perfectly legal?
Yeah, I never remember there being any pressure-related fallout from this design (which Ferrari runs also now, btw).

I find Isola’s comments interesting in that he is somehow walking the line between saying AM and RBR didn’t follow the rules, but the behavior wasn’t technically illegal.

They won’t be able to do it going forward. RBR really pushing the envelope this year.

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:32 am
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:23 am
Reminds me of this:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-m ... 8/5290508/
Of course there will be those here who will defend their "tactics".
So, you have a problem with the FIA saying it was all perfectly legal?
Of course I'd expect you to respond.

I have a problem with double standards.
Guess what, the bendy wings were legal, they passed the tests. People here accused those teams they were cheating.
Then people here accused the teams were violating the "spirit of the rules", which can be argued whether Mercedes tactics were in accordance to the "spirit of the rules" or circum-"venting" rules. It seems that Mercedes are able to get away with their tactics more so than others. I wonder why.

Pirelli's official statement according to autosport:
Red Bull and Aston Martin were running with lower pressures than expected in Formula 1’s Azerbaijan Grand Prix, Pirelli said on Thursday, but did not break any rules.
While Pirelli confirmed that both Red Bull and Aston Martin had followed the regulations with the minimum starting pressures and maximum blanket temperatures, it says that things deviated from what it expected once the cars were running.

Pirelli normally sets a starting pressure based on an expectation that the Psi will then raise further once the tyres are running out on track.

However, it appears that the tyres on Aston Martin and Red Bull did not experience such a raise in pressure in Baku and were therefore running at a lower level than Pirelli anticipated.

By running below the pressure that Pirelli expected, it meant the standing waves being caused by the high-speed Baku corners were enough to trigger the failure on the inside shoulders of Verstappen and Stroll’s left rear tyres.

Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.
So there, we now have definitive judgement that Red Bull and Aston Martin in fact were not cheating and their tyre pressures did not rise as Pirelli presumed would.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:53 am
So there, we now have definitive judgement that Red Bull and Aston Martin in fact were not cheating and their tyre pressures did not rise as Pirelli presumed would.
All we have definitive judgment on is the fact that AM and RBR met starting pressure targets, which was the only way legality was measured prior to this weekend.

What we don’t know is how they’re somehow managing to get the pressures to run lower than others when normally in the universe, heat would cause tire pressures to rise above the starting values before plateauing.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:53 am
I have a problem with double standards.
lol, this forum would have half the posts it currently has if people didn't have double standards.
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:53 am
Guess what, the bendy wings were legal, they passed the tests. People here accused those teams they were cheating.
Then people here accused the teams were violating the "spirit of the rules", which can be argued whether Mercedes tactics were in accordance to the "spirit of the rules" or circum-"venting" rules. It seems that Mercedes are able to get away with their tactics more so than others. I wonder why.
Two points to consider.

1) As the moderators have said many many times, people are allowed to express their opinions freely as long as they keep their language and hostility in check. Thus, if a user can't tolerate other users opinions, because they shine a negative light on their team or driver of choice that is something they just have to live with.

2) Perhaps the FIA was ok with what Mercedes was doing 4 season ago, because they felt it was not pushing the limits of the grey area to far. To what extent a team or driver is bending the rules, has always played a big part in who gets a free pass, and who gets penalized!
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zibby43
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Mark Hughes makes the distinction I pointed out above very clear:

The key distinction to be made is that between what Pirelli describes as the ‘starting parameters’ and the ‘running parameters’.

The starting parameters are based upon the calculation of the running parameters. This calculation proved incorrect at Baku, but there was no regulation about running parameters. So no regulation was broken.


The ironic thing is, starting pressures don’t ultimately matter. Running pressures do. But Pirelli and the FIA were outfoxed.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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zibby43 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:10 am
The ironic thing is, starting pressures don’t ultimately matter. Running pressures do. But Pirelli and the FIA were outfoxed.
As they almost always are!
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