2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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_cerber1
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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error
Last edited by _cerber1 on Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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wrong thread

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_cerber1
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:49 am
wrong thread
:D #-o

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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TimW wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:21 am
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:50 am
Exactly yeah, using the RB provided pressure data (which Pirelli says they can't trust), Pirelli has determined that the pressures were too low.

But Max says they never went below the minimum using this same data.

So we have two parties saying opposite things from the same data. Who is lying?
Nobody is lying.

Pirelli only specifies initial pressures, in the heat blanket. Based on that they will expect a certain range of pressures during the race. Apparently the in race pressures were lower than they expected. It could simply be that the tires ran colder core temperatures than expected, or Pirelli calculated with different expansion coefficients than the actual one, etc.
Thanks, yeah I think that's plausible too.

I wonder if they got the realtime pressure data from any other teams and that's part of the reason they are only blaming those teams we are certain gave them in race pressure data?

In any case, I find it crazy that Pirelli is surprised and describes teams controlling the tire temperature - and thus pressures, to evidently lie outside of their modelling based on starting temperature and pressure as problematic operating conditions of the tire!

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Next year, the tire pressure meters will be supplied by the FIA, so that pressures can be monitored in real time by the FIA
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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Pirelli was wrong again with their calculations. They had increased the tire pressure, but didn't expect the pressure to rise very slightly while driving on this street circuit. They had expected it to rise more, just like on normal tracks.
They should therefore have increased the tire pressure even more before the start in Baku to prevent a blowout.
That's why they now indicate a different tire pressure for the second time, +2 at the rear.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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That's certainly one way of interpreting what happened....

But if it was a simple miscalculations then it should have impacted all teams yet only two teams were called out despite Pirelli having the data (and tyres) from all of them.
The actual quote was that in order for Aston and RBR to be within a safe operating window they would have needed 1.5 to 2psi more, not that this was the case for the remainder of the grid, so the actual conclusion would more likely be that they somehow managed to run the tyres 1.5 to 2 psi + margin below what Pirelli expected.
They did their calculation based on the teams not doing any fancy stuff with how they operate their tyres, can anyone expect them to account for any potential (yet legal) trickery?
Another thing one has to ask: if it merely had been a simple miscalculation - would that lead to 18 (?) pages of changed protocols regarding tyres?

edit: maybe i should add that obviously a tyre's integrity shouldn't really depend on 1.5 psi (0.1 bar)
Last edited by RZS10 on Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Wouter wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:43 am
I've never been able to catch Max on a lie and I've been following him for 15 years now.
It is time for Pirelli to come out with honest answers during the drivers meeting.
This is about driver safety.

I've seen this clip earlier. I just love how Max holds nothing back here, just says it how it is. Compared to Pirelli's public statement a day or two ago this puts some more light on the whole thing. As I said immediately after they released it, pirellis are just garbage tyres, unable to cope not just with modern f1 cars, but f1 cars as a whole. There have been so many tyre failures by now it's getting comical (remember silverstone last year and a million other occasions). Based on how confident Max seems in this clip I don't really expect them to hurt at all from this outcome, apart from another 2psi increase which will hit everyone obviously. It's just that some will be hit more than others.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:33 pm
But if it was a simple miscalculations then it should have impacted all teams yet only two teams were called out despite Pirelli having the data from all of them.
I've asked this before - do you think they have the data from all teams? I've not heard that stated by Pirelli.

Because another parsimonious explanation for the particular structure of Pirellis statements and the disagreement with what Max says is that Pirelli does not in fact have pressure data from all teams.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:33 pm
Another thing one has to ask: if it merely had been a simple miscalculation - would that lead to 18 (?) pages of changed protocols regarding tyres?
I think the explanation for the verbosity is quite simple; 1) No standardised tire pressure measurement system 2) CYA / 'we have to do something' rule-making.
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:23 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:33 pm
But if it was a simple miscalculations then it should have impacted all teams yet only two teams were called out despite Pirelli having the data from all of them.
I've asked this before - do you think they have the data from all teams? I've not heard that stated by Pirelli.

Because another parsimonious explanation for the particular structure of Pirellis statements and the disagreement with what Max says is that Pirelli does not in fact have pressure data from all teams.
I'd be shocked if they didn't get data from every team.
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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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They supposedly get all the tyre related data three days after the race, they don't have any access to it during the race so they have no way to verify that what they receive is actually legit.
Info is from sky italy.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:28 pm
I'd be shocked if they didn't get data from every team.
RZS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:35 pm
They supposedly get all the tyre related data three days after the race, they don't have any access to it during the race so they have no way to verify that what they receive is actually legit.
Info is from sky italy.
This is kind of what I'm saying.

If they have received, from all teams, all pressure data after every grands prix - they don't trust this data apparently-
yet they have used that same untrustworthy data to indict only two teams.

Simultaneous to that, they have never noticed, from that data that they do/do not trust, that the pressures running in the race are different to their modeled pressures from the pre-start test.

All these pieces can't be true at once, IMO.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Have they actually called out both teams based on that data though?
There's surely other ways to come to their conclusion other than just looking at data which (according to Max) shows that RBR never dropped below the minimum starting pressures anyways - they must have done an extensive analysis of tyres from different teams ...

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Have they actually called out both teams based on that data though?
There's surely other ways to come to their conclusion other than just looking at data which (according to Max) shows that RBR never dropped below the minimum starting pressures anyways - they must have done an extensive analysis of tyres from different teams ...
It's more intriguing if they didn't call out the teams based on the data! Especially if they were given it! And if they always get it, then they never noticed before!

If Max says they didn't drop below the minimum starting pressure then what are the remaining points for disagreement?

1) Max is lying
2) The accusations from Pirelli, made from 'arguably' worse/more indirect data, are incorrect?
3) Something else.

This is such a more fascinating disagreement/controversy than the flexy-wing thing!