2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Vasconia wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:06 am
Rodak wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:03 am
seense wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:44 pm
Great race. And yet again; Merc clearly had the faster racecar. Max not be able to threaten Lewis in the first stint. But Lewis able to be right in the Max's gearbox after the first stop. Hamilton lost it on strategy, not pace.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Max was able to hold off Hamilton lap after lap, even though Hamilton had DRS as the following car. Max then opened up a 3 second lead and made his second stop. Mercedes should have immediately reacted, as Bottas pretty loudly pointed out. The faster car won. Could Bottas have just told Mercedes he was coming in and done it? It would be great to have drivers dictating tactics for a change......
Lewis wasn't able to overtake Max because the Dutch was clearly faster on the straight but I think it would have been a matter of time that Lewis would have overtaken him, he was clearly faster.

In any case, it must be frustating for Mercedes to realize that even in France RB has been able to fight with them and even beat them. In 2018 and 2019 Mercedes smashed the competence so the change is clear.
I think Lewis should have pitted right after Max (assuming he missed the undercut anyway) and chased him to the end. Reason being that the Mercedes should have been better on its tyres so some sort of chance would have come up to pressurize Max into a(nother) mistake.
.. ... ... ... ...

sosic2121
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:32 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:54 pm
So many people under estimating the influence on the race of RBR having both cars in the fight.
Mer did not have the free hand in strategy that they have been getting and were found wanting
Exactly. If the second Red Bull had been 30 seconds back in the second stint, Mercedes would have done what they did in Barcelona. With Perez sitting there as a possible road block, they couldn't risk doing it. Having set up Perez to be on newer tyres in that part of the race by pitting him later so that Hamilton would have struggled to get by him, they set it up for Max very nicely. Excellent work by the strategists and by Perez.
Actually, it was Max's second stop that prevented mercedes from switching to 2 stop.

And it was being "driver no. 2" aka "movable roadblock" what prevented Bottas from switching to 2 stop, as he asked his, which was obvious from him yelling to his race engineer.
In the end, one strategy won driver a place and one lost a place.

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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:04 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:06 am
Rodak wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:03 am

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Max was able to hold off Hamilton lap after lap, even though Hamilton had DRS as the following car. Max then opened up a 3 second lead and made his second stop. Mercedes should have immediately reacted, as Bottas pretty loudly pointed out. The faster car won. Could Bottas have just told Mercedes he was coming in and done it? It would be great to have drivers dictating tactics for a change......
Lewis wasn't able to overtake Max because the Dutch was clearly faster on the straight but I think it would have been a matter of time that Lewis would have overtaken him, he was clearly faster.

In any case, it must be frustating for Mercedes to realize that even in France RB has been able to fight with them and even beat them. In 2018 and 2019 Mercedes smashed the competence so the change is clear.
I think Lewis should have pitted right after Max (assuming he missed the undercut anyway) and chased him to the end. Reason being that the Mercedes should have been better on its tyres so some sort of chance would have come up to pressurize Max into a(nother) mistake.
I don't think that would have worked.

I believe Mercedes had the advantage on H allowing Lewis to put Max under pressure.
I don't think he would have had same pace advantage on M.
Also, he would have come out of the box some ~8s behind Max(when Max went to box he was 4s infront, and he would had 1 lap on new M vs old H), so he would have had to catch him first. 19 laps to go, he would have needed more than 0.5s advantage to make it work.

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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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When the gap came down to 4s, suddenly it went up to 5s. Then, for a couple of laps it was going up and down.
Anyone knows what was that about? Traffic?
It seemed that Lewis was really pushing every second lap, like he would push and then cool his tires.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:32 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:54 pm
So many people under estimating the influence on the race of RBR having both cars in the fight.
Mer did not have the free hand in strategy that they have been getting and were found wanting
Exactly. If the second Red Bull had been 30 seconds back in the second stint, Mercedes would have done what they did in Barcelona. With Perez sitting there as a possible road block, they couldn't risk doing it. Having set up Perez to be on newer tyres in that part of the race by pitting him later so that Hamilton would have struggled to get by him, they set it up for Max very nicely. Excellent work by the strategists and by Perez.
Actually, it was Max's second stop that prevented mercedes from switching to 2 stop.

And it was being "driver no. 2" aka "movable roadblock" what prevented Bottas from switching to 2 stop, as he asked his, which was obvious from him yelling to his race engineer.
In the end, one strategy won driver a place and one lost a place.
Hamilton and Bonno discussed going for the second stop and Hamilton said if we go we must go first. I think Mercedes were worried that Perez, on newer tyres than Max, would be no easier to pass than Max. I.e. basically impossible. And so they delayed which gave Red Bull the chance to pit Max first. If Perez had been 30+seconds behind Hamilton, Mercedes would have pitted Hamilton. No doubt about it.
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NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Redbull had the advantage on the straights. Perez was managing his tyres, overtaking him would have been though.

sosic2121
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:01 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:32 pm


Exactly. If the second Red Bull had been 30 seconds back in the second stint, Mercedes would have done what they did in Barcelona. With Perez sitting there as a possible road block, they couldn't risk doing it. Having set up Perez to be on newer tyres in that part of the race by pitting him later so that Hamilton would have struggled to get by him, they set it up for Max very nicely. Excellent work by the strategists and by Perez.
Actually, it was Max's second stop that prevented mercedes from switching to 2 stop.

And it was being "driver no. 2" aka "movable roadblock" what prevented Bottas from switching to 2 stop, as he asked his, which was obvious from him yelling to his race engineer.
In the end, one strategy won driver a place and one lost a place.
Hamilton and Bonno discussed going for the second stop and Hamilton said if we go we must go first. I think Mercedes were worried that Perez, on newer tyres than Max, would be no easier to pass than Max. I.e. basically impossible. And so they delayed which gave Red Bull the chance to pit Max first. If Perez had been 30+seconds behind Hamilton, Mercedes would have pitted Hamilton. No doubt about it.
IMO it was too early for them to pit. Hamilton was aggressive and trying to overtake. As soon as he stopped, RB reacted.

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:29 pm
When the gap came down to 4s, suddenly it went up to 5s. Then, for a couple of laps it was going up and down.
Anyone knows what was that about? Traffic?
It seemed that Lewis was really pushing every second lap, like he would push and then cool his tires.
Hamilton went over the sausage curbs on lap 47 and did low 38's after that instead of the mid 37's he did up until then (floor damage?). Max was also doing mid 37's at that time. Think Hamilton could have won without this off.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen

sosic2121
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:29 pm
When the gap came down to 4s, suddenly it went up to 5s. Then, for a couple of laps it was going up and down.
Anyone knows what was that about? Traffic?
It seemed that Lewis was really pushing every second lap, like he would push and then cool his tires.
Hamilton went over the sausage curbs on lap 47 and did low 38's after that instead of the mid 37's he did up until then (floor damage?). Max was also doing mid 37's at that time. Think Hamilton could have won without this off.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen
=D>
I forgot about that. It seems he lost pace at that moment.
Did he lost pace because he went off, or he went off because he lost pace? We don't know. But he certainly lost valuable time, especially since at the same time Max lost little bit of pace, and maybe race was winnable for Hamilton.

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:21 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:29 pm
When the gap came down to 4s, suddenly it went up to 5s. Then, for a couple of laps it was going up and down.
Anyone knows what was that about? Traffic?
It seemed that Lewis was really pushing every second lap, like he would push and then cool his tires.
Hamilton went over the sausage curbs on lap 47 and did low 38's after that instead of the mid 37's he did up until then (floor damage?). Max was also doing mid 37's at that time. Think Hamilton could have won without this off.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen
=D>
I forgot about that. It seems he lost pace at that moment.
Did he lost pace because he went off, or he went off because he lost pace? We don't know. But he certainly lost valuable time, especially since at the same time Max lost little bit of pace, and maybe race was winnable for Hamilton.
Listen at the 'clack' sound the bottom of his car makes when he comes over the curb back on to the racetrack. He fully hits one of the yellow sausage curbs I suspect. I only saw the replay with the rearward onboard. Anyone else have an other angle of this incident?

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:29 pm
When the gap came down to 4s, suddenly it went up to 5s. Then, for a couple of laps it was going up and down.
Anyone knows what was that about? Traffic?
It seemed that Lewis was really pushing every second lap, like he would push and then cool his tires.
I think battery. They both did that, and on alternating rounds. One lap one deployed, the other lap the other.

At least, I seemed to spot that as well. Is that logical, possible? Save up one lap deploy the other? Sounds a bit strange?
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Sieper
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:29 pm
When the gap came down to 4s, suddenly it went up to 5s. Then, for a couple of laps it was going up and down.
Anyone knows what was that about? Traffic?
It seemed that Lewis was really pushing every second lap, like he would push and then cool his tires.
Hamilton went over the sausage curbs on lap 47 and did low 38's after that instead of the mid 37's he did up until then (floor damage?). Max was also doing mid 37's at that time. Think Hamilton could have won without this off.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen
No, not possible, as PZ said we were waiting for a(nother) mistake by Max. Lewis was so perfect his mistakes weren’t even televised so they do not count.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:37 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:01 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm

Actually, it was Max's second stop that prevented mercedes from switching to 2 stop.

And it was being "driver no. 2" aka "movable roadblock" what prevented Bottas from switching to 2 stop, as he asked his, which was obvious from him yelling to his race engineer.
In the end, one strategy won driver a place and one lost a place.
Hamilton and Bonno discussed going for the second stop and Hamilton said if we go we must go first. I think Mercedes were worried that Perez, on newer tyres than Max, would be no easier to pass than Max. I.e. basically impossible. And so they delayed which gave Red Bull the chance to pit Max first. If Perez had been 30+seconds behind Hamilton, Mercedes would have pitted Hamilton. No doubt about it.
IMO it was too early for them to pit. Hamilton was aggressive and trying to overtake. As soon as he stopped, RB reacted.
But wasn’t the moment Hamilton stopped his agressive chase (from constantly around 0.5 0.7 down to at most 2.5 also the moment they could have pitted and maybe have an undercut? Sergio was indeed there. With a quick car on the straights. But Max would still have to pit as well. So the Checo would have to keep Hamilton behind and Max extent first and then come back later on new tires. Don’t know how that would have all played out. In any case. The one stopper wasn’t so outlandish, it almost worked. I thought it did with 4 laps to go.
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:06 pm
langedweil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:03 pm
Bill wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:32 am
all talk about flexy wing they are no flexy wings someone has made a better pu than merc.Rbr were allegedly supposed to lose anyway from 0.3 tenths to .06 tenth it didn't happen in facts Honda found more power with better reliability and new oil
I'd say the difference lies more towards the chassis side, because RB was able to use less df and thus had a higher straightline speed. Normally over the last few years a Merc with DRS seemed unstoppable, now Lewis could only creep up.
I think engine/deployment wise Merc still has a slight upperhand.
But what do I know ..
It wasn't chassis, it was a setup choice. When they were on the same compound tires with roughly the same number of laps on them, Merc was faster in sector 1 & 3, while RBR was faster in Sector 2.
Yeah, well .. ofcourse it was setup, but only so much. You have to have a certain level of mechanical grip to get the car through the corners, right ?
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:04 pm
In any case. The one stopper wasn’t so outlandish, it almost worked. I thought it did with 4 laps to go.
It was very close, wasn't it? A slightly slow stop (very unusual for the pit stop gods in Red Bull, of course) would have ruined Max's chances. A slightly sticky back marker holding Max up at a tricky point; had Bottas been able to hold him up for half a lap more; had Max out braked himself just once. Any of that and Hamilton would likely have won.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"