2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:44 pm
Even when we have to look just one week back for evidence against it.
Don't even have to go back one week, Nando and Kimi had a good fight after the SC restart, i think that video might have been posted here, but it got deleted and re-uploaded.
The situation from the previous race isn't even that similar, but this one is pretty much the same as Norris/Checo, Kimi as the overtaking driver is ahead, Alonso a bit later on the brakes but leaves just about enough space [insert the quote] on the outside.

The old men showing the kids how it's done, without running and/or ramming each other off track.

[edit: replaced the video with the official top10 onboard footage]
Last edited by RZS10 on Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RaceFan1 wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:47 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
Perez car was there first. He doesnt have to do anything. He has the choice of taking caution and vacating the space. But remember there is a rule against sudden movements that xan be considered dangerous. This is exactly what Lando did, unpredictable sudden movement into a space occupied by another car. So even if Perez wanted to respond and get out of it which he did, it wouldnt be enough and result in a collision or loss of full control.
For Sure!!

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Diesel wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:53 am
Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.
I wonder how many times you´ve bashed FIA. Now they understand racing? :lol:

Horner said that because of precedents, fullstop. When someone was not punished before, now they shouldn´t punish others for the same. But anyone who has ever raced at any level, at any category, knows pushing someone off track shold never be allowed. At least consciously. When the driver at the outside is not allongside and driver in front could not see him that´s a different matter obviously

But suggesting drivers who know there´s a fellow driver at his outside, can push him off track consciously :wtf: , is the evidence of someone who has never been behind the wheel and knows nothing about racing

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F1NAC
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Diesel wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:53 am
Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.
I wonder if he would be saying the same thing had Perez not pushed Leclerc wide and got penalised.

There must be someone from RB on FIA radio the moment Norris pushed Perez wide. It's just that it backfired later because Perez got penalised as well. Although he lost only one position which still is unfair.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:08 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:44 pm
Even when we have to look just one week back for evidence against it.
Don't even have to go back one week, Nando and Kimi had a good fight after the SC restart, i think that video might have been posted here, but it got deleted and re-uploaded.
The situation from the previous race isn't even that similar, but this one is pretty much the same as Norris/Checo, Kimi as the overtaking driver is ahead, Alonso a bit later on the brakes but leaves just about enough space [insert the quote] on the outside.

The old men showing the kids how it's done, without running and/or ramming each other off track.
Good example. The young men also know how to do it, but I think in both cases it was also an ego, standing your ground thing. Lando wanted to show it and later on Also Perez VS leclerc. Kimi and Alonso are in a different phase, no need to prove anything anymore, or not the car to do it (or position in the race). And yes, pick your battles, something hardest to learn.
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Pany
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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I AM PRO REDBULL, but i say no, norris was simply following his trajectory. Very Slight movement are normal in curves. Perez wass too anxious and nervous, in fact repeated even worse mistakrs after.
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:00 am
Diesel wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:53 am
Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.
I wonder how many times you´ve bashed FIA. Now they understand racing? :lol:

Horner said that because of precedents, fullstop. When someone was not punished before, now they shouldn´t punish others for the same. But anyone who has ever raced at any level, at any category, knows pushing someone off track shold never be allowed. At least consciously. When the driver at the outside is not allongside and driver in front could not see him that´s a different matter obviously

But suggesting drivers who know there´s a fellow driver at his outside, can push him off track consciously :wtf: , is the evidence of someone who has never been behind the wheel and knows nothing about racing

darkpino
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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I was watching the NASCAR race on Road America last evening and wondered why they seem to be able to run wheel to wheel there but it seems impossible in F1?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:44 am
I was watching the NASCAR race on Road America last evening and wondered why they seem to be able to run wheel to wheel there but it seems impossible in F1?
For the same reason that NASCAR is about an ice age per lap slower than an F1 car would be around that track. Because they're very different cars with very different characteristics.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

darkpino
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:09 am
darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:44 am
I was watching the NASCAR race on Road America last evening and wondered why they seem to be able to run wheel to wheel there but it seems impossible in F1?
For the same reason that NASCAR is about an ice age per lap slower than an F1 car would be around that track. Because they're very different cars with very different characteristics.
I don't agree on that. The speed doesn't make a car more or less race-able per definition. If you see the (steering) inputs of the drivers I wouldn't even say racing a stockcar on a roadcourse is easier then racing a Formula car

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Jolyon Palmer has released his analysis on the Lando v Perez incident:



So basically, he sees it as harsh, especially since this rule was not upheld in the past 2 years or so, and there were multiple instances in other corners where something similar happened but did not get penalized. However, he thinks this penalty is needed and needs to be more consistent moving forward.

101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Totally agree with Jolyon.

He definitely knows how to analyse matters.

The one thing that’s been consistent is the inconsistency

Sevach
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Fully agree with him, penalties have been very inconsistent, he looked back at 2019 but this has been going on since the Schumacher era really.
If this kinda defense keeps being allowed it means overtaking on the outside only happens if the guy on the inside is feeling generous, the Gasly in France example was quite clear.

This will likely be discussed come the weekend and hopefully they rubberstamp that this is where they draw the line.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:01 pm
Totally agree with Jolyon.

He definitely knows how to analyse matters.

The one thing that’s been consistent is the inconsistency
Exactly. And this inconsistency is really unfair to the drivers. Lando will have seen that precise move go unpunished multiple times and assume it's a legit, legal course of action in defending a place, only then to be penalised for it.

I'm sure in a race or two's time, an identical situation will occur and go unpunished. How can they be expected to race hard but fairly if what's ok and what's not keeps changing race to race?

I think the fact there was gravel there and Perez lost a bunch of places was 100% the reason for the penalty. If there was tarmac there and Perez *only* didn't make the overtake then there would have been no penalty at all.

Then you're onto the intent vs outcome debate, which is another one entirely but equally worth considering. Should you penalise someone according to what they've done, or as to what the knock on effect of their actions is? There's a legit argument for both.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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so why should it then be either? The stewards can weigh both, can look at "intention" and can take into consideration that Perez was in front before the corner. All legitimate from my point of view. This will mean that yes, sometimes outcome is different than other time which was very similar. But oftentimes very similar cases are not the same. As we have seen in even this exact same corner several times.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

dans79
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:55 pm
so why should it then be either? The stewards can weigh both, can look at "intention" and can take into consideration that Perez was in front before the corner. All legitimate from my point of view. This will mean that yes, sometimes outcome is different than other time which was very similar. But oftentimes very similar cases are not the same. As we have seen in even this exact same corner several times.
I think a large part of that is the lack of clarity from the stewards.

I mean honestly it's one sentence.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... _track.pdf
At the entry of turn 4, PER and NOR were side by side. Then on the exit NOR was
judged not to give PER enough room and PER was forced off the track.
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