2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:42 pm
RaceFan1 wrote:
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:15 pm


Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.
I know we aren't going to fix this on this forum, but I love the discussion.

I believe that Perez should've held his line and made Norris prove he's worthy of being called a world championship level driver. Can he hold a line and control his car when under pressure? Perez was ahead entering the corner. He had every right to be on that outside line within track limits. AKA, not in the gravel.

Everyone wishes that todays F1 was as good as the "old days", with side by side battles and rivalries. Without respect for track limits and fellow competitors there will be no battles. Everyone will be backing off because they can't trust the car next to them.
It’s true that we aren’t going to solve the problem… But your comment of “Norris proving his world champion material…” denotes heavy bias and is an unnecessary dig at him.

Depending on your point of view of the situation, you can see it either way… I believe that Norris proved how good he is by not backing down in the fight with Perez… Perez broke later, but by the time they were in the apex of the corner, Norris was ahead of him, therefore the corner and racing line was his… I guess the question is who is ahead and when? For me at least, the one ahead is the one who’s front axle is ahead of his rival by the apex of the corner.

One of the things that were criticized of Norris was that he was “too nice” and that he wouldn’t stick his elbows out… He is doing it now and an experience driver such as Perez shouldn’t expect Norris to yield the position when he doesn’t have to (like in this case)… Your comment about “keeping the car under control” is also not relevant and borderline “baiting”, Norris had his car under control the entire time, he didn’t made corrections or open more his steering wheel… T4 is a corner that induces understeer and the McLaren is front limited, Norris was in full steering lock in the corner, what else what he supposed to do?.

Perez on the other hand, tried to stick the move when the gap wasn’t going to be there, he knew even at corner entry that Lando was up to speed and side by side with him and that Norris was going to be ahead by the Apex (because he had the inside and racing line)… He decided to to push for the move regardless, ended up without space and going into the gravel.

I’m not saying that Perez is at fault, but he went for a move that wasn’t going to happen because he wasn’t ahead enough of Norris to claim the corner, nor did they have a tire / grip advantage since it was effectively the second lap of the race and they were on the same tire compound… The Penalty was unnecessary and it was a racing incident, not much different that many we have seeing and will see in the future… Like the much discussed Bahrain incident between Lewis and Max… Just as with Perez, Max went for the move on the outside line against Lewis, Lewis had the inside / racing line and they were side by side… Max ended up having to go off track… In that case, there was a run off, not only was Lewis not penalized, Max had to give the position back for overtaking off track.


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Yes, but there Max was ahead of Lewis. Maybe, if he braked a bit more, the penalty would have been for Lewis as he indeed left no room there (but it wasn’t needed anymore as Max was ahead). I think Max was being very carefull there, this has gone wrong between them in the past and you never know how that ends. Plus, I have always felt so, with the exception of a few defending moves in 2015, Max has always been a fair racer. Hard but Fair. As is Lando by the way. But yes, you will have to show your commitment. I never thought Lando is too nice. He is nice, funny, I think quite well balanced when taking risks, but certainly not too nice in duels. Glad he has a good car and a good contract. Now we need Russell in a good seat and there is some more big talent coming through via F3 and F2.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Didn't Max just lose the rear end on acceleration in Bahrain? He didn't "have to" go anywhere, he made the tiniest of mistakes which put him wide even before Hamilton was anywhere close to the edge of the track and he was so far ahead already that it would have been hard for Lewis to actually crowd him off track anyways.

"Norris is still a young driver and not as mature as Perez, so naturally he will have this type of driving style." - Perez did the same thing twice afterwards so it probably doesn't have much to do with maturity.

p.s. @Sieper: maybe you should rewatch some race highlights from 2016 to 2018 :^)

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:24 am
Didn't Max just lose the rear end on acceleration in Bahrain? He didn't "have to" go anywhere, he made the tiniest of mistakes which put him wide even before Hamilton was anywhere close to the edge of the track and he was so far ahead already that it would have been hard for Lewis to actually crowd him off track anyways.

"Norris is still a young driver and not as mature as Perez, so naturally he will have this type of driving style." - Perez did the same thing twice afterwards so it probably doesn't have much to do with maturity.

p.s. @Sieper: maybe you should rewatch some race highlights from 2016 to 2018 :^)
Not talking about Perez and Leclerc, as it had nothing to do with Norris. Perez avoided contact with Norris and Norris was deemed to have driven Perez off track (not making an attempt to avoid contact) and got the penalty points. Both will have 8 penalty points when they race in Silverstone so hopefully both will clean up their act.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Oh so you meant that the avoidance of contact in that particular situation was a sign of maturity, or?
Either way, would be a shame if any driver would miss out on a race because of those silly points tbh - but no corner that would allow an overtake around the outside comes to mind in Silverstone that doesn't have a tarmac runoff so they should be fine.

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:15 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:34 pm
RaceFan1 wrote:
Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
No, Perez should have backed off knowing that he wasn’t going to stick the move.


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Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.
Two different things, was Perez hasty trying that, from a "not dominant" (close to half a car ahead) on the first lap (or SC re-start rather)? I would say yes.
But that doesn't mean Norris has the right to do whatever the hell he wants.

There's always going to be a risk if moves like that are allowed, heck Charles did have a dominant position Checo probably still red misted still decided "not today", so did Gasly in France.

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:57 am
Oh so you meant that the avoidance of contact in that particular situation was a sign of maturity, or?
Either way, would be a shame if any driver would miss out on a race because of those silly points tbh - but no corner that would allow an overtake around the outside comes to mind in Silverstone that doesn't have a tarmac runoff so they should be fine.
Yes, Sergio went off track, Lando went right up to the edge of it. The stewards deemed that driving off the track. If Sergio did not go off track, what room was there for Lando to go to? Nowhere. Sergio and Lando would have absolutely made contact, with both of their races compromised. Lando got off quite easy, still had a podium, but got the penalty points that the stewards and many other former drivers agreed was a warranted penalty. You can say whatever you want, it won't change the fact that Lando was awarded the penalty. Also, you can still be penalized for running a driver off track even if there is tarmac runoff outside the track limits. Penalties aren't given out simply because there is gravel there.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:47 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm
Nascar does not use aerodynamics to increase grip, so they don´t care about dirty air. F1 does, but that´s also the reason a F1 car would lap a Nascar in 2-3 laps maybe.
Nascar use aero to increase grip, it's just not nearly as sensitive as the aero components on an F1 car!
Change senstitive with powerful and we´ll agree. Nascar use some pretty basic aero so DF is also basic. Some aero will cause dirty air to be barely noticeable, but F1 cars are based on aerodynamics, so the effect is extremelly noticeable

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:00 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm
darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:22 am


I don't agree on that. The speed doesn't make a car more or less race-able per definition. If you see the (steering) inputs of the drivers I wouldn't even say racing a stockcar on a roadcourse is easier then racing a Formula car
Sorry but you´re so wrong it almost hurts :P

You´re right if you only consider cars with no aerodynamics/downforce, but with cars with downforce things change drastically. Surely you´ve hear about dirty air, that´s the reason F1 can´t fight wheel to wheel like Nascar. Nascar does not use aerodynamics to increase grip, so they don´t care about dirty air. F1 does, but that´s also the reason a F1 car would lap a Nascar in 2-3 laps maybe.

It´s the dark side of downforce. Hopefully next season the new aerodynamic rules will minimize this problem and we´ll see more wheel to wheel battles. Some of us have been waiting for this aerodynamic change to reduce dirty air for decades \:D/
Have you seen the race on Road America? Then you’ll notice it has not only to do with dirty air but also with leaving space for each other once you’re side by side with an other car/driver
Obviously, but that´s a completely different matter caused by FIA allowing drivers to push each others out of track for years. But no matter what FIA allows or ban, F1 or any other category similary fast, will never be able to race wheel to wheel like lower series (Nascar, WTCC, etc.)

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Diesel wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:20 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
The international sporting code only requires a driver to leave a space if the driver is returning to the racing line. Norris was on the racing line when Perez went off track.

FIA INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE APPENDIX L
b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left. A driver may not leave the track without
justifiable reason. More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position off-
line, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards.
If there's another rule then please share the relevant part of the regulations and/or sporting code.

You´re posting it yourself, but still keep repeating lando didn´t do it wrong? #-o

If Lando didn´t move out of the racing line to defend, how is possible that Perez entered the corner from the outside wich is the racing line? Lando moved out of the line to close the door at the braking, Perez took the racing line and did the corner from the outside, he left a car width at the inner kerb instead of crashing with Lando, but when they went to the outer kerb Lando didn´t do the same, he didn´t left a car width at the outer kerb and did push Perez out of track. Straightforward penalty

I´m amazed people can´t see it, that´s probably because neither of you raced ever, at any level. Anyone with any experience know you can´t push anyone out of track. That´s the racing version of a murder, I don´t care about you at all so I´ll kill you because that´s the best for me. Do that at your local track and prepare for someone to come in to your box and have something more than loud words :x

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RaceFan1 wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:47 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
Viscerally I´d say yes, keep the line and if some other car try to push you out, he´ll crash with you. But when you think about it rationally, that will probably end with both cars retired, while moving out of track did allow Perez to finish the race and collect a good amount of points

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Datco wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:29 pm
As a RBR supporter I don't think the penalty was fair. In this particular case it was about Lando having the racing line that cuts across the track. Why should anybody give up the racing line just because someone does a dive bomb. What if the track was wet but just had the drier racing line. I equate this to Bottas.. Russel incident earlier this year were Bottas was entitled to the racing line that cut across the track
Because racing is about cars competing and overtaking each other. If none give up while he´s on the racing line there will be no overtakings anymore, and we will see few cars finishing the race because there will be a crash at any overtaking attempt

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:24 am
Didn't Max just lose the rear end on acceleration in Bahrain? He didn't "have to" go anywhere, he made the tiniest of mistakes which put him wide even before Hamilton was anywhere close to the edge of the track and he was so far ahead already that it would have been hard for Lewis to actually crowd him off track anyways.

"Norris is still a young driver and not as mature as Perez, so naturally he will have this type of driving style." - Perez did the same thing twice afterwards so it probably doesn't have much to do with maturity.

p.s. @Sieper: maybe you should rewatch some race highlights from 2016 to 2018 :^)
:lol: :lol: :lol: =D>
On the other hand, it seems he really changed.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Diesel wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:20 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
The international sporting code only requires a driver to leave a space if the driver is returning to the racing line. Norris was on the racing line when Perez went off track.

FIA INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE APPENDIX L
b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left. A driver may not leave the track without
justifiable reason. More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position off-
line, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards.
If there's another rule then please share the relevant part of the regulations and/or sporting code.
You are not applying the rule properly or making logical sense.
First you talk about leaving a space if returning to the racing line.. Then you say the driver is on the racing line. Which is it? is he on it or returning to it? If he is on it then why is he leaving it to push off another car?
That rule speaks about approaching the corner..Lando was already through the corner and did not put up a defence eaeliee. Does not apply here and that part of the rule is speaking to approaching and entering the braking zone.
What you quietly ignore is what i have in bold.
For Sure!!

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i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:35 am
You are not applying the rule properly or making logical sense.
First you talk about leaving a space if returning to the racing line.. Then you say the driver is on the racing line. Which is it? is he on it or returning to it? If he is on it then why is he leaving it to push off another car?
That rule speaks about approaching the corner..Lando was already through the corner and did not put up a defence eaeliee. Does not apply here and that part of the rule is speaking to approaching and entering the braking zone.
What you quietly ignore is what i have in bold.
I didn't quitely ignore it, the part you've highlighted is the part of the sporting code (not a rule) that the stewards have chosen to apply in this instance. None of what you've previously said is in the sporting code.
manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited.
So the only question is, did Norris deliberataly crowd Perez off the track, or was he simply driving the normal racing line? To your point, you are correct he didn't leave the racing line, he was on the racing line throughout the exit of the corner. And as you said, he didn't put up a defence going in to the corner either so he wasn't required to leave any space. So we are effectively in agreement that Norris did nothing wrong?

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:12 am
You´re posting it yourself, but still keep repeating lando didn´t do it wrong? #-o

If Lando didn´t move out of the racing line to defend, how is possible that Perez entered the corner from the outside wich is the racing line? Lando moved out of the line to close the door at the braking, Perez took the racing line and did the corner from the outside, he left a car width at the inner kerb instead of crashing with Lando, but when they went to the outer kerb Lando didn´t do the same, he didn´t left a car width at the outer kerb and did push Perez out of track. Straightforward penalty

I´m amazed people can´t see it, that´s probably because neither of you raced ever, at any level. Anyone with any experience know you can´t push anyone out of track. That´s the racing version of a murder, I don´t care about you at all so I´ll kill you because that´s the best for me. Do that at your local track and prepare for someone to come in to your box and have something more than loud words :x
Settle down now. The sporting code (not a rule) clearly states " should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner".

I'm just going to ignore all the hysterics and acusations about murder :wtf:

EDIT: Sky do a good assessment of the incidents. To note, Christian Horner, Andreas Seidl, Johnny Herbet & Karun Chandhok are all of the opinion it was simply a racing incident and no penalty was needed.