2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Perez his own block on leclerc later in the race (the turn 4 one) and Even Hamilton’s opening of the steer on Albon last year were more clearcut than Norris. You can give it, especially as Norris braked himself back into the fight so late (so it was more his choice than Perez) and I think it was a penalty, but that we have like 10 pages of debate is understandable. So far a good debate imho.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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Mogster
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Some of the comments in the last few pages give the impression that the cars are moving like canal boats with the drivers making complex decisions in response to a half glimpse of a following car in their mirrors. Having experienced the rear view in a single seater race car I’ve no idea how you’re supposed to leave space for someone that’s placed his front wing next to your rear wheel. On an Indycar broadcast recently Paul Tracy remarked that if you aren’t wheel to wheel then the guy in front is going to take his line. You can’t drive leaving space in case a following car might want to stick his nose inside (or outside) you at some point.

Indycar has a rule that you can’t change your line in response to a following car handing the advantage to the overtaker. They were handing out penalties for this at the weekend. Maybe there’s some mileage in this as it does make overtaking much easier.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:39 am
RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:57 am
Oh so you meant that the avoidance of contact in that particular situation was a sign of maturity, or?
Either way, would be a shame if any driver would miss out on a race because of those silly points tbh - but no corner that would allow an overtake around the outside comes to mind in Silverstone that doesn't have a tarmac runoff so they should be fine.
[...] You can say whatever you want, it won't change the fact that Lando was awarded the penalty.

Also, you can still be penalized for running a driver off track even if there is tarmac runoff outside the track limits. Penalties aren't given out simply because there is gravel there.
The first sentence isn't really an argument, is it?
It is of course a factual statement, but if everyone would think that way then one could just as well stop discussing anything, so it is kinda weird, yet i see it being used, especially in conversations about sporting events.

You seem to believe that i disagree with any of the penalties, but as i've written somewhere here in this thread i don't, the license points however are maybe questionable and they might adjust that post season, as Masi said it's not something they would change during the season.
I initially quoted that sentence of yours because i thought it was amusing that you pointed out differences in maturity between Perez and Lando when, with roles reversed for Perez, said alleged maturity was suddenly gone. That was all.

What is outside the track seemed to play a role in the decisions they make so far (even if it shouldn't), just two corners back the situation was similar, only that Perez was further behind on apex but was able to floor it and even gain an advantage from running out of track - so they seemingly do take the outcome into consideration.
____

About the closer racing in WTCC, DTM and other similar series being discussed here - DTM used to be reliant on aero and they had to add DRS to allow cars to follow the others, but they still had closer battles simply because drivers knew that the cars could handle some rubbing, so they could throw it down the inside knowing that they could 'lean' on the other car without instantly ending their race, same as those who were defending who could just turn in knowing that their car could take the hit.
Many of those close battles simply wouldn't be possible in open wheelers.
____

In general i don't understand many of the points here about understeer and basically being a passenger who can't avoid going wide when there was a carbon copy of the situation in the very same race which had a different outcome.

Why? Because both drivers, Kimi and Nando chose different approach speeds/angles/lines which allowed for both of them to have the necessary space. Arguably Alonso was even ahead and potentially could have gotten away with 'claiming the corner' as some would call it.
Aligned them at various lines on the tarmac (so there's differences in timing):
Image
They (N/P) just end up wider earlier.

If aligned at the beginning of the outside curb and not adjusting for speed into the corner it becomes quite obvious that Norris/Perez went into the corner faster than Kimi/Nando, it's similar at the 100 marker and then the pair Kimi/Alonso 'drop back' by going in slower and seemingly also turning in later:

Image

No one could realistically expect any driver to suddenly make room on the outside, but if they go into the corner side by side they should be fully aware of it and thus choose their lines and cornering speeds accordingly - that is what Norris and Perez failed to do.

JordanFiveOh
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Apologize if already posted, but Chain Bear has a good video on it.


Sevach
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:49 pm

No one could realistically expect any driver to suddenly make room on the outside, but if they go into the corner side by side they should be fully aware of it and thus choose their lines and cornering speeds accordingly - that is what Norris and Perez failed to do.
I 100% agree with that, now all we need is consistency in this call (no matter the type of run off).

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:49 pm
The first sentence isn't really an argument, is it?
It is of course a factual statement, but if everyone would think that way then one could just as well stop discussing anything, so it is kinda weird, yet i see it being used, especially in conversations about sporting events.

You seem to believe that i disagree with any of the penalties, but as i've written somewhere here in this thread i don't, the license points however are maybe questionable and they might adjust that post season, as Masi said it's not something they would change during the season.
I initially quoted that sentence of yours because i thought it was amusing that you pointed out differences in maturity between Perez and Lando when, with roles reversed for Perez, said alleged maturity was suddenly gone. That was all.

What is outside the track seemed to play a role in the decisions they make so far (even if it shouldn't), just two corners back the situation was similar, only that Perez was further behind on apex but was able to floor it and even gain an advantage from running out of track - so they seemingly do take the outcome into consideration.
____

About the closer racing in WTCC, DTM and other similar series being discussed here - DTM used to be reliant on aero and they had to add DRS to allow cars to follow the others, but they still had closer battles simply because drivers knew that the cars could handle some rubbing, so they could throw it down the inside knowing that they could 'lean' on the other car without instantly ending their race, same as those who were defending who could just turn in knowing that their car could take the hit.
Many of those close battles simply wouldn't be possible in open wheelers.
____

In general i don't understand many of the points here about understeer and basically being a passenger who can't avoid going wide when there was a carbon copy of the situation in the very same race which had a different outcome.

Why? Because both drivers, Kimi and Nando chose different approach speeds/angles/lines which allowed for both of them to have the necessary space. Arguably Alonso was even ahead and potentially could have gotten away with 'claiming the corner' as some would call it.
Aligned them at various lines on the tarmac (so there's differences in timing):
https://i.imgur.com/Ds5OUOZ.png
They (N/P) just end up wider earlier.

If aligned at the beginning of the outside curb and not adjusting for speed into the corner it becomes quite obvious that Norris/Perez went into the corner faster than Kimi/Nando, it's similar at the 100 marker and then the pair Kimi/Alonso 'drop back' by going in slower and seemingly also turning in later:

https://i.imgur.com/JtQYY4U.png

No one could realistically expect any driver to suddenly make room on the outside, but if they go into the corner side by side they should be fully aware of it and thus choose their lines and cornering speeds accordingly - that is what Norris and Perez failed to do.
Unfortunately I can´t upvote this post, but that´s a perfect explanation

We could even say it was Norris who did the dive bomb, Perez was a bit ahead before the braking point and it was Lando who braked later trying to keep position, but failed to do the normal line when two cars are in parallel (the one Kimi and Alonso took later). It does not matter if it was on purpose or because of understeer, voluntarily or not he pushed Perez out of track and that´s a penalty anycase

It was not in the past tough, and that´s causing a lot of debate. I guess that´s the reason there are lots of people defending such a dirty maneouver, because it was allowed by FIA in the past. But in the past FIA also punished many drivers for the same so, is that really an argument?

Ignoring previous decisions, I´d say when some cars are racing at a track, neither of them can push any other out of track consciously, at least when they´re paired and none has a clear advantage. Can we all agree on this?

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Unf
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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By the way - do you know this channel on Twitter?
Since official F1 videos don't use such great ghost cars comparison... someone else do it :)


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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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It is nice, but the ghost car behavior is too interpreted. Especially with these close differences that makes it more fun than accurate.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:40 pm
Unfortunately I can´t upvote this post, but that´s a perfect explanation

We could even say it was Norris who did the dive bomb, Perez was a bit ahead before the braking point and it was Lando who braked later trying to keep position, but failed to do the normal line when two cars are in parallel (the one Kimi and Alonso took later). It does not matter if it was on purpose or because of understeer, voluntarily or not he pushed Perez out of track and that´s a penalty anycase

It was not in the past tough, and that´s causing a lot of debate. I guess that´s the reason there are lots of people defending such a dirty maneouver, because it was allowed by FIA in the past. But in the past FIA also punished many drivers for the same so, is that really an argument?

Ignoring previous decisions, I´d say when some cars are racing at a track, neither of them can push any other out of track consciously, at least when they´re paired and none has a clear advantage. Can we all agree on this?
To be honest, most of the debate here has been fairly civil. It's only you that's come raging in with accusations of murder, divebombs, dirty maneuvers, and other hysterics. I think we can all agree to remain civil and keep all the raging out of it no?

It was a racing incident, one the stewards decided to punish with the lowest form of penalty they could give. And now we are debating if that was the right decision. Let's leave all the other stuff you mention out of it as I don't think it's constructive.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:49 pm
No one could realistically expect any driver to suddenly make room on the outside, but if they go into the corner side by side they should be fully aware of it and thus choose their lines and cornering speeds accordingly - that is what Norris and Perez failed to do.
If you look at the amount of steering angle Perez has in frame 5 of your analysis you have to wonder if Perez would have been able to stay on track even if Norris wasn't there.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Hard to tell, if you watch Bottas' onboard he kinda follows Perez' line up to a point but then their lines diverge because he doesn't have another car on the right and had a slightly different entry into the corner, so he just about manages to keep the car on track - and if you watch Perez' onboard you can see that he's working the wheel and momentarily taking out some steering angle throughout the corner, but of course there is a point at which he was bound to go off.

Here's both of them side by side
Image

Their steering input
Image

Seeing the throttle application of both would help a lot to better judge the situation.


And that ghost car stuff is a fun little excercise but as Sieper pointed out it's not very accurate, one can see how the cars move back and forth relative to each other where they shouldn't, getting weird acceleration boosts here and there, looks like an online race with terrible ping.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:58 pm
It is nice, but the ghost car behavior is too interpreted. Especially with these close differences that makes it more fun than accurate.
Why do you think that? Creator has said in the past there's more than 70 keyframes for ghost car, which in my opinion makes it quite accurate. Even if you compare to official's side by side which is based off of mini sector data it's pretty spot on.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Diesel wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:00 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:40 pm
Unfortunately I can´t upvote this post, but that´s a perfect explanation

We could even say it was Norris who did the dive bomb, Perez was a bit ahead before the braking point and it was Lando who braked later trying to keep position, but failed to do the normal line when two cars are in parallel (the one Kimi and Alonso took later). It does not matter if it was on purpose or because of understeer, voluntarily or not he pushed Perez out of track and that´s a penalty anycase

It was not in the past tough, and that´s causing a lot of debate. I guess that´s the reason there are lots of people defending such a dirty maneouver, because it was allowed by FIA in the past. But in the past FIA also punished many drivers for the same so, is that really an argument?

Ignoring previous decisions, I´d say when some cars are racing at a track, neither of them can push any other out of track consciously, at least when they´re paired and none has a clear advantage. Can we all agree on this?
To be honest, most of the debate here has been fairly civil. It's only you that's come raging in with accusations of murder, divebombs, dirty maneuvers, and other hysterics. I think we can all agree to remain civil and keep all the raging out of it no?

It was a racing incident, one the stewards decided to punish with the lowest form of penalty they could give. And now we are debating if that was the right decision. Let's leave all the other stuff you mention out of it as I don't think it's constructive.
I´ll read your absurd post (accusations of murder? Can you read Diesel?) as, "I will not agree with you because I´ve been defendind the contrary and now that you point to that obvious fact I feel myself embarrased, but I´m too proud to recon"

Sometimes things need to be simplified to be understood, no matter the name of the driver or team, no matter what FIA say or said in the past. Pushing your competitors out of track consciously should be banned and punished, always. It is this simple.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Juzh wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:35 am
Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:58 pm
It is nice, but the ghost car behavior is too interpreted. Especially with these close differences that makes it more fun than accurate.
Why do you think that? Creator has said in the past there's more than 70 keyframes for ghost car, which in my opinion makes it quite accurate. Even if you compare to official's side by side which is based off of mini sector data it's pretty spot on.

A few words from the creator himself about his creation.

Ghost F1

This is an alternative way of comparing qualifying laps.

This is not 100% accurate and has been done by eye.
https://www.youtube.com/c/GhostF1

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Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

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Mogster wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
Some of the comments in the last few pages give the impression that the cars are moving like canal boats with the drivers making complex decisions in response to a half glimpse of a following car in their mirrors. Having experienced the rear view in a single seater race car I’ve no idea how you’re supposed to leave space for someone that’s placed his front wing next to your rear wheel. On an Indycar broadcast recently Paul Tracy remarked that if you aren’t wheel to wheel then the guy in front is going to take his line. You can’t drive leaving space in case a following car might want to stick his nose inside (or outside) you at some point.

Indycar has a rule that you can’t change your line in response to a following car handing the advantage to the overtaker. They were handing out penalties for this at the weekend. Maybe there’s some mileage in this as it does make overtaking much easier.
Agree 100%. IndyCar has much more realistic racing rules than F1. Simple and understandable by the fans.