2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[seense]

Eventually there was no punishment for the drivers found guilty after crossing the line in both incidents.

As has already been stated by the race director, outcomes/consequences (real or potential) are not to be considered when deciding on the punishment for a given incident.

Exactly, they applied that with both incidents. Which in Hamilton eyes didnt make sense when they used that with the vettel bottas crash.

[dans79]

Eventually there was no punishment for the drivers found guilty after crossing the line in both incidents.

As has already been stated by the race director, outcomes/consequences (real or potential) are not to be considered when deciding on the punishment for a given incident.

Exactly, they applied that with both incidents. Which in Hamilton eyes didnt make sense when they used that with the vettel bottas crash.

No one said hamilton was right!

[Hoffman900]

Eventually there was no punishment for the drivers found guilty after crossing the line in both incidents.

As has already been stated by the race director, outcomes/consequences (real or potential) are not to be considered when deciding on the punishment for a given incident.

Exactly, they applied that with both incidents. Which in Hamilton eyes didnt make sense when they used that with the vettel bottas crash.

In Lewis' defense, he was likely politicking for Valtteri in the first one.

This time, Horner and Marko are doing the same. I think most just roll their eyes at Marko anymore and Horner, well, it's his job, but he also is weirdly obsessed with Max as Danny Ric pointed out. I hope for Max's sake, they sit him down, and tell him while they appreciate the fight, he needs to learn to give some when he has that big of a lead in the points. I don't think they will as will Jos and I worry he doesn't learn from it.

And outcomes / consequences shouldn't be considered when deciding punishment in sport.

[214270]

Christian Horner ‘NoBoDy PaSsEs At StOwE’.
Hamilton then passes as Stowe.


Exactly!

This is also my favorite tweet of all time, perhaps:

https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/status ... 88897?s=21

I don’t think Horner’s well liked, even the Brits think he’s full of it

[dtro]

Ultimately when someone destroys your race through an error and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really. [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.
Sir Hamilton French GP 2018

This was already covered several pages ago. He was referring to his teammate who got rear-ended by a driver that had a big lockup. It's in no way similar to what happened yesterday.

Okay. It's irrelevant if he was referring to his teammate.

Ultimately when someone, (Vettel), destroys your race through an error (damaging VB's car (damaging another driver's car is an error/mistake/miscalculation) and it's only kind of a tap on the hand really (five sec penalty I believe). He (Vettel) is just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Ultimately when someone (Lewis) destroys your race through an error (taking out Max) and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really (10 sec penalty). [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Apples and oranges. Yes. Right. Of course.

[Hoffman900]

It's not. It's racing.

If you destroy someone's car, that doesn't mean your race should be destroyed too. Especially if an accident.

This is not how any of this works, in any form of racing. I race bicycles now, it's the same there. If I tangle handlebars with someone, and they crash and break their collarbone, they're not allowed to smash me with a hammer in mine.

Otherwise, we could just have Formula 1 TT, where cars are released every 30 seconds and we don't have this. Racing is always going to have these potential outcomes, and the over management of the racing aspect needs to stop. Most American series have figured this out, BTCC / DTM back in the day, etc.

[Starkblood80]

Ultimately when someone destroys your race through an error and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really. [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.
Sir Hamilton French GP 2018

This was already covered several pages ago. He was referring to his teammate who got rear-ended by a driver that had a big lockup. It's in no way similar to what happened yesterday.

Okay. It's irrelevant if he was referring to his teammate.

Ultimately when someone, (Vettel), destroys your race through an error (damaging VB's car (damaging another driver's car is an error/mistake/miscalculation) and it's only kind of a tap on the hand really (five sec penalty I believe). He (Vettel) is just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Ultimately when someone (Lewis) destroys your race through an error (taking out Max) and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really (10 sec penalty). [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Apples and oranges. Yes. Right. Of course.

The 2 incidences are hardly comparable though, one was literally 100% Vettels fault where as there is a compelling enough argument to say yesterdays incident was 60-40.

[langedweil]

I truly wonder how discussion would have been if things happened the other way around.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Nice, thanks. I had some random meme as my first result!

I completely agree with Karun here, and having seen this piece of footage now, you can see just how aggressive Max was, he saw Lewis, backed out, changed his mind sand decided to squeeze his loaded front wing in a 300kph corner. What a stupid thing to do for himself. When a front his a rear, it's the rear hit car that usually loses out *Unless your name is Vettel and you drive a Ferrari). He had several more corners to take control.

People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes. He knew exactly where he eas placing his car to make that corner. The car would have been around that corner safely and at a lower speed than normal. In fact i dont think there was any significant understeer either. Lewis intent was simply to occupy the space while turning to keep Max off the apex forcing him to take a wider line. It was not a wreckless dive bomb into a closing gap.
Max is more at fault for playing a game he had no business playing with his pointd advantage. And turn in hard like a mad man, knoeing full well LH44 was occupying the inside of the track.
I am glad it is over and think the discussion should shift. I always maintained that Lewis has mind games in his arsenal. He will continue to present Max with tough decisions to make.. go for it or back out.
When Lewis takes back the lead of the championship he will go back to being conservative and protecting his points.
This is just something Max has never experienced. He will do well to learn game theory.

Yep nailed it. And clearly by the interviews given by HAM afterwards, there wasn’t a mistake. He absolutely intently chose to keep the line that he followed. I don’t get the mistake part people keep drumming up. He hasn’t said any such thing. He just wasn’t going to go further towards the apex. He’s made it abundantly clear

[seense]

As has already been stated by the race director, outcomes/consequences (real or potential) are not to be considered when deciding on the punishment for a given incident.

Exactly, they applied that with both incidents. Which in Hamilton eyes didnt make sense when they used that with the vettel bottas crash.

No one said hamilton was right!

Again I agree! What I dont agree with is you included the fact that both incidents are different. They are different, but it's not much of importance in the "imposed punishment vs outcome" discussion.

[101FlyingDutchman]

I truly wonder how discussion would have been if things happened the other way around.

Same thing imho. You can replace the names and I’d have the same opinion. Like Masi said, judge the merits of the case. But fwiw I find what the actual driver says about it far more telling about how the coming together happened then us arm chair experts opining and forming an opinion based on our own bias.

Fwiw VER had no business in taking that level of risk. So he’s defo culpable from that angle. No sympathy there. He’s too aggressive at times. Simple.
But there is absolutely no reason to think that the accident couldn’t have been avoided. HAM didn’t have full steering lock (like some people here seem to suggest), you clearly haven’t raced anything in anger if you even opine it. He chose to maintain that bit of road that VER gave up and had no intention to make use of 1 car width space that VER did leave closing down together towards the apex.

[dans79]

Ultimately when someone destroys your race through an error and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really. [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.
Sir Hamilton French GP 2018

This was already covered several pages ago. He was referring to his teammate who got rear-ended by a driver that had a big lockup. It's in no way similar to what happened yesterday.

Okay. It's irrelevant if he was referring to his teammate.

Ultimately when someone, (Vettel), destroys your race through an error (damaging VB's car (damaging another driver's car is an error/mistake/miscalculation) and it's only kind of a tap on the hand really (five sec penalty I believe). He (Vettel) is just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Ultimately when someone (Lewis) destroys your race through an error (taking out Max) and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really (10 sec penalty). [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Apples and oranges. Yes. Right. Of course.

In both cases it was luck and circumstance that the driver that was given a penalty finished ahead.

The only reason Vettel finished ahead in France, is because it was easier for him to get back to the pits with half a front wing than it was for Bottas with a flat left rear. They both got very lucky because the safety car later in the lap meant neither of them lost a chunk of time to the pack like they would have otherwise.


Lewis could have easily retired yesterday as well.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... t/6633653/

During the stoppage, Mercedes inspected Hamilton's car to assess the damage from the incident with Verstappen, which was when an issue with his left-front wheel rim was spotted, and the parts were duly replaced.

Given Hamilton's team was unable to detect the potential problem while the driver was on the track, Mercedes trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin believes had the race not been stopped the damage would have resulted in a car retirement.

"We'd failed the rim where we had the contact at the front left, so that would've been a DNF had it not been red-flagged," Shovlin said after the British GP.

[nzjrs]

I truly wonder how discussion would have been if things happened the other way around.

PZ wouldn't have come back!

[El Scorchio]

I truly wonder how discussion would have been if things happened the other way around.

Obviously exactly the same but with roles and attitudes reversed amongst Verstappen, Hamilton, Horner, Marko and Wolff, and several of the less objective posters on here.

[dtro]

This was already covered several pages ago. He was referring to his teammate who got rear-ended by a driver that had a big lockup. It's in no way similar to what happened yesterday.

Okay. It's irrelevant if he was referring to his teammate.

Ultimately when someone, (Vettel), destroys your race through an error (damaging VB's car (damaging another driver's car is an error/mistake/miscalculation) and it's only kind of a tap on the hand really (five sec penalty I believe). He (Vettel) is just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Ultimately when someone (Lewis) destroys your race through an error (taking out Max) and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really (10 sec penalty). [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.

Apples and oranges. Yes. Right. Of course.

The 2 incidences are hardly comparable though, one was literally 100% Vettels fault where as there is a compelling enough argument to say yesterdays incident was 60-40.

Don't want to make an ass of myself assuming who you attribute the majority of the fault yesterday. Hear all the time late apex is a safe apex, and what Ham took yesterday was an early apex, in my opinion. He was never going to make that corner cleanly. But regardless.

I don't view Hamilton as some sort of ill-intentioned individual attempting to take out their main championship rival, but given the factual breakdown of what happened and how it reverberates results wise, it just "doesn't weigh up."

I'm not a huge Max fan looking for blood. I view this like Senna and Prost coming together because both of them wanted to win so bad that sometimes that meant putting themselves in positions where both of them could lose.

Could just call it a wash, all drivers are selfish, when you combine talent, ego, selfishness, and two cars are close enough there isn't enough room on the tarmac and sometimes someone wins out.

If at the end of the year though, it comes down to whether both of them could have made it through that corner and raced one another without contact or what actually happened. Well it would be Ham 8 time WDC* with the asterisk for me at least.

But who cares, this doesn't pay our bills.