2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:22 pm
cheeRS wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:20 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:07 pm

The one car's width rule applies when a driver changes line to defend against an attack. Not in every random situation on track.

An alternative view as to why Hamilton was slowing down is that Max turned in to him and Hamilton was trying to avoid a ham-fisted defence. Or is that too controversial? :wink:

As a Ham fan, I cannot say I am unbiased, but IMO that explanation seems most accurate to me. Max turned in to fast/sharp for Lewis to really go anywhere as Lewis was backing off slightly.

Look at it this way: a driver can always go wider on a corner provided there is enough track and/or runoff, Of which there is ample amount at Copse. If roles and WDC points were reversed, I totally see Lewis running wide to the runoff with Max taking the inside. Exactly what he did in Hungary 2019 or 2020 for example.

When Max looked in his mirror and saw that Lewis was still there at Copse, he corrected left. He should have gone a bit more left instead of turning sharply right again. I say ‘should have’ with the assumption that Max actually wants to still win the WDC this year ;)
Interesting that a driver now is allowed to run wide (outside track limits) and in Bahrain not.

VER left the required amount of space according to the rulebook.

This does not take away VER could have avoided this incident if he decided to back out before Copse.
The only driver outside of track limits in Copse was Max and he wasn't in control. Unlike his T1 incident where he deliberately ran wide and swept back on track.

Please show the images that show Hamilton outside of track limits. That is, where he would have had his time deleted. Clue he would have had to have gone beyond the black and white kern on the exit which he didn't so. So he's entirely legal in that regard.
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nimoraca
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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I personally never saw any understeer. Just watched onboard of Lewis, and can't see it. The car was steering where he was pointing with the steering. With understeer there should be a misalignment of the wheels and where the car is going. I do think that that was the line he wanted to take because that meant taking the ideal line from Verstappen. It is typically what drivers on the inside do. They rarely hug the inside/apex but instead go as wide as needed to take the line from the outside driver. His goal is not to make sure they both make the corner with Verstappen in front, his goal is to use the advantage he made by making it to the inside. Hugging the inside of the track would mean decreasing the speed, the same way going wider for Verstappen (as there was plenty of space) would mean decreasing the speed as well.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:28 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:22 pm
cheeRS wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:20 pm



As a Ham fan, I cannot say I am unbiased, but IMO that explanation seems most accurate to me. Max turned in to fast/sharp for Lewis to really go anywhere as Lewis was backing off slightly.

Look at it this way: a driver can always go wider on a corner provided there is enough track and/or runoff, Of which there is ample amount at Copse. If roles and WDC points were reversed, I totally see Lewis running wide to the runoff with Max taking the inside. Exactly what he did in Hungary 2019 or 2020 for example.

When Max looked in his mirror and saw that Lewis was still there at Copse, he corrected left. He should have gone a bit more left instead of turning sharply right again. I say ‘should have’ with the assumption that Max actually wants to still win the WDC this year ;)
Interesting that a driver now is allowed to run wide (outside track limits) and in Bahrain not.

VER left the required amount of space according to the rulebook.

This does not take away VER could have avoided this incident if he decided to back out before Copse.
The only driver outside of track limits in Copse was Max and he wasn't in control. Unlike his T1 incident where he deliberately ran wide and swept back on track.

Please show the images that show Hamilton outside of track limits. That is, where he would have had his time deleted. Clue he would have had to have gone beyond the black and white kern on the exit which he didn't so. So he's entirely legal in that regard.
HAM ended up on the outside kerb. Where was the space for VER then had HAM not initiated the contact? Yes, outside the track.

This means the car on the inside did not respect the car on the outside, as he the car on the outside got run out of the track.
Last edited by Fnatic1 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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nimoraca wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:29 pm
I personally never saw any understeer. Just watched onboard of Lewis, and can't see it. The car was steering where he was pointing with the steering. With understeer there should be a misalignment of the wheels and where the car is going. I do think that that was the line he wanted to take because that meant taking the ideal line from Verstappen. It is typically what drivers on the inside do. They rarely hug the inside/apex but instead go as wide as needed to take the line from the outside driver. His goal is not to make sure they both make the corner with Verstappen in front, his goal is to use the advantage he made by making it to the inside. Hugging the inside of the track would mean decreasing the speed, the same way going wider for Verstappen (as there was plenty of space) would mean decreasing the speed as well.
This is understeer clear as day, even acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jolyon Palmer, Driver61, David Coulthard, Jenson Button and so on.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:33 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:28 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:22 pm


Interesting that a driver now is allowed to run wide (outside track limits) and in Bahrain not.

VER left the required amount of space according to the rulebook.

This does not take away VER could have avoided this incident if he decided to back out before Copse.
The only driver outside of track limits in Copse was Max and he wasn't in control. Unlike his T1 incident where he deliberately ran wide and swept back on track.

Please show the images that show Hamilton outside of track limits. That is, where he would have had his time deleted. Clue he would have had to have gone beyond the black and white kern on the exit which he didn't so. So he's entirely legal in that regard.
HAM ended up on the outside kerb. Where was the space for VER then had HAM not initiated the contact? Yes, outside the track.
Irrelevant. It would have been for Max, trying to go around the outside, to have found space. It's fairly long standing practice that the inside driver has "the line" and is entitled to use the line. A driver trying to go outside of that driver is putting himself in a position to be pushed off track. Ergo, his problem.

Hence why, in Turn 1 in Spain, Hamilton backed off in order to a) avoid Max who was diving up the inside, and b) to avoid running off track and thus be required to follow the tortuous route back on track.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:35 pm
nimoraca wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:29 pm
I personally never saw any understeer. Just watched onboard of Lewis, and can't see it. The car was steering where he was pointing with the steering. With understeer there should be a misalignment of the wheels and where the car is going. I do think that that was the line he wanted to take because that meant taking the ideal line from Verstappen. It is typically what drivers on the inside do. They rarely hug the inside/apex but instead go as wide as needed to take the line from the outside driver. His goal is not to make sure they both make the corner with Verstappen in front, his goal is to use the advantage he made by making it to the inside. Hugging the inside of the track would mean decreasing the speed, the same way going wider for Verstappen (as there was plenty of space) would mean decreasing the speed as well.
This is understeer clear as day, even acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jolyon Palmer, Driver61, David Coulthard, Jenson Button and so on.
F1 cars are set up to understeer in high speed corners. It's the only safe way to set up the car. It was always going to understeer. Just like dropping an apple on Earth is always going to result in the apple hitting the floor.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:37 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:33 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:28 pm

The only driver outside of track limits in Copse was Max and he wasn't in control. Unlike his T1 incident where he deliberately ran wide and swept back on track.

Please show the images that show Hamilton outside of track limits. That is, where he would have had his time deleted. Clue he would have had to have gone beyond the black and white kern on the exit which he didn't so. So he's entirely legal in that regard.
HAM ended up on the outside kerb. Where was the space for VER then had HAM not initiated the contact? Yes, outside the track.
Irrelevant. It would have been for Max, trying to go around the outside, to have found space. It's fairly long standing practice that the inside driver has "the line" and is entitled to use the line. A driver trying to go outside of that driver is putting himself in a position to be pushed off track. Ergo, his problem.

Hence why, in Turn 1 in Spain, Hamilton backed off in order to a) avoid Max who was diving up the inside, and b) to avoid running off track and thus be required to follow the tortuous route back on track.
Not irrelevant.

The car on the inside did not respect the car on the outside, which he’s obliged to as the car on the outside was alongside and even slightly ahead.

Exactly why the penalty was issued to the car on the inside.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:40 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:37 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:33 pm


HAM ended up on the outside kerb. Where was the space for VER then had HAM not initiated the contact? Yes, outside the track.
Irrelevant. It would have been for Max, trying to go around the outside, to have found space. It's fairly long standing practice that the inside driver has "the line" and is entitled to use the line. A driver trying to go outside of that driver is putting himself in a position to be pushed off track. Ergo, his problem.

Hence why, in Turn 1 in Spain, Hamilton backed off in order to a) avoid Max who was diving up the inside, and b) to avoid running off track and thus be required to follow the tortuous route back on track.
Not irrelevant.

The car on the inside did not respect the car on the outside, which he’s obliged to as the car on the outside was alongside and even slightly ahead.

Exactly why the penalty was issued to the car on the inside.
If Allison is right about the FIA guidelines, it’s the other way round and you only have to be significantly alongside

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:27 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:19 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm


No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.
Actually different situations:

A) On the NOR-PER incident, the driver on the inside is the defending car
B) On the NOR-PER incident, the penalty is for not leaving a car width space on the outside for the overtaking car
True, still the defending party should have left a car width on the outside, which they did not.

Verstappen was in this case the defending party, in this case on the outside. He left the car width, which he is obliged to.

Hamilton the attacking party who induced the understeer by taking too much speed into the corner at that kind of angle, hence the initiator of the contact and therefore at fault.
I just posted the video below on the the thread discussing the crash… I disagree with your point of view since in the onboard videos I haven’t seen Hamilton under steering, he is definitely going in to the corner too fast for the position of the car (just as I believe that Max was also going in too fast for the corner)… Neither car was on the optimal line when taking and entering the corner, neither was close to the left part of the track where you would start your cornering and it seemed that both turned later than even in their Qualifying laps.

Yes, Max left a car’s width on the inside… A car’s width considering a car that is entering the corner on the ideal line, not a car that is entering the corner from “the middle of the road” and he was aware that Hamilton was there even when he starts his initial turn in (to the point that he corrects the steering wheel and then turns in again).

I’m of the opinion that it is indeed a racing incident… An incident that both drivers could have avoided, but neither of them was willing to yield the corner and the collision was the result of it… Just as Hamilton could have broke earlier and yielded (he did brake into the corner)… Max could have also used the brakes instead of just lifting for the corner and could have taken a wider line into it.

I don’t think that only one driver is responsible for the incident in this case… And I’m positive that just as I have made up my mind in regards to the incident, you have also… But comparing the incident to the one in Austria is just wrong, because they are in essence different incidents.


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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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This is now the longest race thread by some margin, good job y'all

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kenshi_blind
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:40 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:37 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:33 pm


HAM ended up on the outside kerb. Where was the space for VER then had HAM not initiated the contact? Yes, outside the track.
Irrelevant. It would have been for Max, trying to go around the outside, to have found space. It's fairly long standing practice that the inside driver has "the line" and is entitled to use the line. A driver trying to go outside of that driver is putting himself in a position to be pushed off track. Ergo, his problem.

Hence why, in Turn 1 in Spain, Hamilton backed off in order to a) avoid Max who was diving up the inside, and b) to avoid running off track and thus be required to follow the tortuous route back on track.
Not irrelevant.

The car on the inside did not respect the car on the outside, which he’s obliged to as the car on the outside was alongside and even slightly ahead.

Exactly why the penalty was issued to the car on the inside.
it's common knowledge that the car on the outside is the one that always see the space available to it shrink, i am not sure where that alternative reality of the car on the inside has to respect the one on the outside comes from
example in portimao when Hamilton passed Max and Max tried to get the place back by taking the outside line only to see the space available shrink and in the end he had to back out of it

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:51 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:27 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:19 pm


Actually different situations:

A) On the NOR-PER incident, the driver on the inside is the defending car
B) On the NOR-PER incident, the penalty is for not leaving a car width space on the outside for the overtaking car
True, still the defending party should have left a car width on the outside, which they did not.

Verstappen was in this case the defending party, in this case on the outside. He left the car width, which he is obliged to.

Hamilton the attacking party who induced the understeer by taking too much speed into the corner at that kind of angle, hence the initiator of the contact and therefore at fault.
I just posted the video below on the the thread discussing the crash… I disagree with your point of view since in the onboard videos I haven’t seen Hamilton under steering, he is definitely going in to the corner too fast for the position of the car (just as I believe that Max was also going in too fast for the corner)… Neither car was on the optimal line when taking and entering the corner, neither was close to the left part of the track where you would start your cornering and it seemed that both turned later than even in their Qualifying laps.

Yes, Max left a car’s width on the inside… A car’s width considering a car that is entering the corner on the ideal line, not a car that is entering the corner from “the middle of the road” and he was aware that Hamilton was there even when he starts his initial turn in (to the point that he corrects the steering wheel and then turns in again).

I’m of the opinion that it is indeed a racing incident… An incident that both drivers could have avoided, but neither of them was willing to yield the corner and the collision was the result of it… Just as Hamilton could have broke earlier and yielded (he did brake into the corner)… Max could have also used the brakes instead of just lifting for the corner and could have taken a wider line into it.

I don’t think that only one driver is responsible for the incident in this case… And I’m positive that just as I have made up my mind in regards to the incident, you have also… But comparing the incident to the one in Austria is just wrong, because they are in essence different incidents.

That’s fair, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it’s supported.

I agree that both drivers could have avoided a collision, but that’s racing right?

I slightly deviate from your assessment as for the incident I blame HAM as he induced the understeer. VER left more than a car width which is in accordance with the regulations, hence not to blame for the contact.

However, this does not take away he could have avoided it by backing out before Copse corner.

HAM trajectory didn’t leave space for VER trajectory going around the outside. Even if VER would have taken a wider line, a collision would have been likely inevitable.

VER should have used more common sense especially with the championship lead he had. He should have conceded before Copse or even in Brooklands.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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The 'cars width' is not really relevant if the car can not get into it. A fully fuelled car trying to take a place is always going to be in a different place than one taking a perfect racing line. I doubt Hamilton could have 'gone right' to the space no matter how hard he tried.
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RZS10
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:03 pm
HAM trajectory didn’t leave space for VER trajectory going around the outside. Even if VER would have taken a wider line, a collision would have been likely inevitable.
It was marginal since they touched with the forward facing edge of the rear rim to the rearward facing edge of the front rim with the wheels almost being parallel to each other - One centimetre further apart and they collide rim face to rim face and the result probably isn't as catastrophic.

Looking at how rapidly Lewis was falling back relative to Max shortly before the incident:
Image

it's totally within the realm of possibilities that they might not have touched, even with one tyre width more space:
Image

I personally don't believe that a collision was inevitable irregardless of Max' choice of line.

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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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This information gives greater insight as to what Verstappen might have felt inside the cockpit. It seems the front end of the car hit the barrier first. Then the car rotated at the last moment and led to a side and rear impact. I can't imagine how much something like that hurts, it has to shock your entire body from head to toe. Such an impact will push all the air out of your lungs, even if the car and the barrier dissipates the impact, you still feel it. Injuries can develop after an accident, I've seen enough injury lawyers on TV to remember the point.

It's very hard to prove intent from the information available unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you want to look at it. That would be the crux of any legal argument for any type of punishment.
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