2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:06 pm
Diesel wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:57 am
jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:33 am


Allowed to change like-for-like in parc ferme if you find an issue and FIA delegate agrees. A crack in the structure of the engine is sufficient for free change. It will likely mean penalties down the line.
A new engine is clearly not like for like though? Is there a recent precident for this? I can't think of anyone changing an engine during parc ferme before a race without a penalty.

EDIT: Reading the FIA notes, this is an entire PU change... surely they should only have been allowed to change the ICE?

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... issues.pdf
Under parc ferme rules you may change any part as long as it’s from the same spec, apart from the chassis somehow.

Further they don’t distinguish between a brake duct or an entire PU. So, it’s all allowed and happened many times the past few years.
The parc ferme rules are quite clear you can't change anything. This was done as part of a written request to the technical delegate.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Just saw that the document had been linked already-
Last edited by RZS10 on Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Diesel wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:10 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:06 pm
Diesel wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:57 am


A new engine is clearly not like for like though? Is there a recent precident for this? I can't think of anyone changing an engine during parc ferme before a race without a penalty.

EDIT: Reading the FIA notes, this is an entire PU change... surely they should only have been allowed to change the ICE?

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... issues.pdf
Under parc ferme rules you may change any part as long as it’s from the same spec, apart from the chassis somehow.

Further they don’t distinguish between a brake duct or an entire PU. So, it’s all allowed and happened many times the past few years.
The parc ferme rules are quite clear you can't change anything. This was done as part of a written request to the technical delegate.
Just look at the list on the fia website before every race. Almost every car has parts changed under parc ferme rules and all have to be done with a written request. Replacing a part with one of the same spec isn’t considered changing the car. Setup and sped must remain the same.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Diesel wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:10 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:06 pm
Diesel wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:57 am


A new engine is clearly not like for like though? Is there a recent precident for this? I can't think of anyone changing an engine during parc ferme before a race without a penalty.

EDIT: Reading the FIA notes, this is an entire PU change... surely they should only have been allowed to change the ICE?

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... issues.pdf
Under parc ferme rules you may change any part as long as it’s from the same spec, apart from the chassis somehow.

Further they don’t distinguish between a brake duct or an entire PU. So, it’s all allowed and happened many times the past few years.
The parc ferme rules are quite clear you can't change anything. This was done as part of a written request to the technical delegate.
Yeah, that's BS, they change the entire motor including the exhaust system components that were changed earlier in the weekend.

I'm pretty sure you were only allowed to change things under parc feme if you could show that it had been damaged/compromised in some way.

How has every part of the power unit been damaged, including the ones that have already been replaced this weekend?
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djones
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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I have no facts, but do seem to remember a lot of these late engine changes ending in a DNF.

Unless there is a variable such as rain I think today’s race will be between Bottas and Max. The Merc race pace is nearly always better than qualifying so Lewis will be gone up front alone.

Magicsenna_41
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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I'm not OK with engine change. OK it is maybe same spec but not performance wise. Max will have a very good sprint towards turn 1 and 2 plus softer rubber fitted. Let's see how this will pan out.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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I wonder if the teams have already accounted for a 4th Power Unit in the years budget. Surley it's the most expensive part to replace. So if they need 4 power units, then that must hit the budget very hard.
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Magicsenna_41
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
I wonder if the teams have already accounted for a 4th Power Unit in the years budget. Surley it's the most expensive part to replace. So if they need 4 power units, then that must hit the budget very hard.
I think the cost cap was not for the PU side. Was it? Not sure.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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djones wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:19 pm
I have no facts, but do seem to remember a lot of these late engine changes ending in a DNF.

Unless there is a variable such as rain I think today’s race will be between Bottas and Max. The Merc race pace is nearly always better than qualifying so Lewis will be gone up front alone.
I think when you exclude the McLaren-Honda years (and possibly RIC’s final year at RedBull), it’s quite uncommon to DNF with a last moment change. Teams, in this part of the season always swap the entire PU from Friday to Saturday, so it’s no biggie at this point.

djones
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
I wonder if the teams have already accounted for a 4th Power Unit in the years budget. Surley it's the most expensive part to replace. So if they need 4 power units, then that must hit the budget very hard.
The development costs will be huge, but I suspect a full chassis costs more to actually manufacture, mainly due to labour.

politburo
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Magicsenna_41 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:23 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
I wonder if the teams have already accounted for a 4th Power Unit in the years budget. Surley it's the most expensive part to replace. So if they need 4 power units, then that must hit the budget very hard.
I think the cost cap was not for the PU side. Was it? Not sure.
The cost cap was for everything, including R&D, supply chain, materials and parts. Essentially all finances that are used to run the team fall within the cap. Plus, there is a limit of 3 ICE before you start getting penalties.
23.2 a) Unless hea driver drives for more than one (1) Competitor (see Article 23.3 23.2c) below),
and subject to the additions described below, each driver may use no more than 3 engines
(ICE), 3 motor generator units-heat (MGU-H), 3 turbochargers (TC), 2 energy stores (ES),
2 control electronics (CE), 3 motor generator units-kinetic (MGU-K) and eight (8) of each
of the four (4) elements constituting a set of Engine exhaust systems during a
Championship. For the purpose of this article a set of Engine exhaust systems is deemed
to comprise the following four (4) elements: primaries LHS, primaries RHS, secondary LHS
and secondary RHS.

23.2 b) Should a driver use more than the numbers set in a) above of any one of the elements
during a Championship, a race grid place penalty will be imposed upon him at the first Event during which each additional element is used. Penalties will be applied according
to the following table and will be cumulative:
The first time an additional element is used: Ten (10) grid place penalty.
The next time an additional element of the same type is used: Five (5) grid place penalty.
If a driver incurs a penalty exceeding fifteen (15) grid places he will be required to start
the race from the back of the starting grid.
Any of the seven (7) elements will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing
transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
During any single Event, if a driver introduces more than one of the same power unit
element which is subject to penalties, only the last element fitted may be used at
subsequent Events without further penalty.
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Phil
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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I would think an engine can not by default be an identical part, because of the variation in mileage. Therefore i would have assumed it can not be changed during park ferme without penalty. But i guess i stand corrected then.

Also; didnt RedBull introduce a new spec engine? Therefore, it’s not an “identical part”?
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Magicsenna_41
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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politburo wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:31 pm
Magicsenna_41 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:23 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
I wonder if the teams have already accounted for a 4th Power Unit in the years budget. Surley it's the most expensive part to replace. So if they need 4 power units, then that must hit the budget very hard.
I think the cost cap was not for the PU side. Was it? Not sure.
The cost cap was for everything, including R&D, supply chain, materials and parts. Essentially all finances that are used to run the team fall within the cap. Plus, there is a limit of 3 ICE before you start getting penalties.
23.2 a) Unless hea driver drives for more than one (1) Competitor (see Article 23.3 23.2c) below),
and subject to the additions described below, each driver may use no more than 3 engines
(ICE), 3 motor generator units-heat (MGU-H), 3 turbochargers (TC), 2 energy stores (ES),
2 control electronics (CE), 3 motor generator units-kinetic (MGU-K) and eight (8) of each
of the four (4) elements constituting a set of Engine exhaust systems during a
Championship. For the purpose of this article a set of Engine exhaust systems is deemed
to comprise the following four (4) elements: primaries LHS, primaries RHS, secondary LHS
and secondary RHS.

23.2 b) Should a driver use more than the numbers set in a) above of any one of the elements
during a Championship, a race grid place penalty will be imposed upon him at the first Event during which each additional element is used. Penalties will be applied according
to the following table and will be cumulative:
The first time an additional element is used: Ten (10) grid place penalty.
The next time an additional element of the same type is used: Five (5) grid place penalty.
If a driver incurs a penalty exceeding fifteen (15) grid places he will be required to start
the race from the back of the starting grid.
Any of the seven (7) elements will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing
transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
During any single Event, if a driver introduces more than one of the same power unit
element which is subject to penalties, only the last element fitted may be used at
subsequent Events without further penalty.
The PU deal is not included in the cost cap afaik.

Regarding the PU change: it is regulated of course but seems not to be fair imo.
New PU means more power in the life cycle.

djones
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Phil wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:52 pm
I would think an engine can not by default be an identical part, because of the variation in mileage. Therefore i would have assumed it can not be changed during park ferme without penalty. But i guess i stand corrected then.

Also; didnt RedBull introduce a new spec engine? Therefore, it’s not an “identical part”?
Short of taking apart the engine and analysing every single nut and bolt how does anybody ever know they are identical anyway. I bet all manufacturers add small changes for each new engine.

kalinka
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Re: 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

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Another chain of thundersorms coming towards the track. It will be interesting...

https://www.idokep.hu/radar

the track is located somewhat right (East) from Budapest