2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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zibby43
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Ryar wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:53 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:38 am
Ryar wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:32 am
In the past, they had PU advantage, which allowed them to bolt a lot of downforce, which helped both in S2 and tyre life. They can't afford that anymore. It's interesting to see if they have figured out the engine failure of Aston and their own (albeit the oldest one) and can they continue to run the engine harder in a demanding Monza.
One thing is for sure, they will use Bottas to give a toe to Lewis, like in Baku, even if it means compromising Bottas' situation. Hope Red Bull can do that as well.
I don’t know if I am misunderstanding what you are saying there, but no one is bolting on more downforce at Monza.

They did have a PU advantage, and they certainly seemed to regain it starting at Silverstone, judging by the straight line head-to-head comparisons since then.

At Monza, you maximize that advantage with the lowest drag spec. possible and you rely on that to get the laptime, living with whatever performance you get in the corners and relying on the car’s mechanical grip/setup.
2018
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... g&usqp=CAU

2019
https://cdn--1-motorsport-com.cdn.amppr ... amg-f1.jpg

2020
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... Q&usqp=CAU
And your point is? The RW is a very inefficient (i.e., draggy) form of downforce. The last thing I’d want to do at Monza is run any more RW than I absolutely have to.

Accordingly, the 2020 RW looks like a toothpick (on pole by 8 tenths).

2019 is the only wing that maybe looks a bit larger than what I would typically expect at Monza, but that’s the car that required downforce at all costs to work as a consequence of the FW changes.

Merc were running more wing everywhere that year.

Ferrari were on pole in 2019, also. That’s when they had the thirsty PU.

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F1NAC
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Engine will be mega stressed this weekend. RB could be in trouble. Running basically on max PU during sprint, and then in the race.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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F1NAC wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:38 am
Engine will be mega stressed this weekend. RB could be in trouble. Running basically on max PU during sprint, and then in the race.
Why would RB be in trouble? They have very reliable and strong Honda PU's.

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F1NAC
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:45 am
F1NAC wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:38 am
Engine will be mega stressed this weekend. RB could be in trouble. Running basically on max PU during sprint, and then in the race.
Why would RB be in trouble? They have very reliable and strong Honda PU's.
It has one more race if they did Hungary and Zandvoort with the same engine. Dunno. I'm just now forgetting that they didn't race in Belgium so that's 300 km less than usual. Will see.

What I was trying to say is that they had to fit him earlier with fresh engine VS Mercs

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:27 am
Ryar wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:53 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:38 am


I don’t know if I am misunderstanding what you are saying there, but no one is bolting on more downforce at Monza.

They did have a PU advantage, and they certainly seemed to regain it starting at Silverstone, judging by the straight line head-to-head comparisons since then.

At Monza, you maximize that advantage with the lowest drag spec. possible and you rely on that to get the laptime, living with whatever performance you get in the corners and relying on the car’s mechanical grip/setup.
2018
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... g&usqp=CAU

2019
https://cdn--1-motorsport-com.cdn.amppr ... amg-f1.jpg

2020
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... Q&usqp=CAU
And your point is? The RW is a very inefficient (i.e., draggy) form of downforce. The last thing I’d want to do at Monza is run any more RW than I absolutely have to.

Accordingly, the 2020 RW looks like a toothpick (on pole by 8 tenths).

2019 is the only wing that maybe looks a bit larger than what I would typically expect at Monza, but that’s the car that required downforce at all costs to work as a consequence of the FW changes.

Merc were running more wing everywhere that year.

Ferrari were on pole in 2019, also. That’s when they had the thirsty PU.
Dude, red bull ran toothpick wings and was still always slower on straights than mercedes powered cars. Only on the very top end were they starting to catch up with their zero drag approach. These very low wings quite obviously hurt them in corners. If you can't understand this then not much else to say.

Simply, if you have more power you can bolt on more wing because engine will compensate, and that's what mercedes and their customers did over the years.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Can we just remember when McLaren ran this wing and almost won at Monza?

Image

Because some may not be aware: McLaren innovated with a switching duct that ran to the rear wing top plane and would pass air directly through it to stall the wing and reduce drag (and downforce as a by-product).

Button ran with it open the entire time at Monza and almost won from Alonso, who pipped him with a slightly better strategy.
Last edited by SiLo on Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Felipe Baby!

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:53 am
Can we just remember when McLaren ran this wing and almost won at Monza?

https://i.redd.it/ieo337hnvwix.jpg
I see you're not familiar with the so-called f-duct?

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:57 am
SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:53 am
Can we just remember when McLaren ran this wing and almost won at Monza?

https://i.redd.it/ieo337hnvwix.jpg
I see you're not familiar with the so-called f-duct?
I am very familiar with the f-duct! (Internally named the J-duct)
Felipe Baby!

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:02 am
Jolle wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:57 am
SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:53 am
Can we just remember when McLaren ran this wing and almost won at Monza?

https://i.redd.it/ieo337hnvwix.jpg
I see you're not familiar with the so-called f-duct?
I am very familiar with the f-duct! (Internally named the J-duct)
Well, than you should know that they could run this wing angle because they stalled it on the straights.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:20 am
SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:02 am
Jolle wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:57 am


I see you're not familiar with the so-called f-duct?
I am very familiar with the f-duct! (Internally named the J-duct)
Well, than you should know that they could run this wing angle because they stalled it on the straights.
I did know that, I was merely pointing it out at part of the rear wing discussions, and a lead in to newer fans that may not know about it.
Felipe Baby!

Mr.S
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Mercedes, Mclaren & Ashton Martin should all do very well here. I wouldn't be surprised to see Williams in Q3. Mercedes have the best PU by a comfortable margin & a fresher PU so this pans out great for them.

This should be a Mercedes 1-2 with possibly a Norris podium. Russia should also suit them. Monza & Russia should be about damage limitation for RB. I think Max will be happy to take 2nd if both of these races. If he loses 14 points (leading by 5 now), he will be down by 9 only with a handful of races left so he should have a good chance.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Mr.S wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:25 am
Mercedes, Mclaren & Ashton Martin should all do very well here. I wouldn't be surprised to see Williams in Q3. Mercedes have the best PU by a comfortable margin & a fresher PU so this pans out great for them.

This should be a Mercedes 1-2 with possibly a Norris podium. Russia should also suit them. Monza & Russia should be about damage limitation for RB. I think Max will be happy to take 2nd if both of these races. If he loses 14 points (leading by 5 now), he will be down by 9 only with a handful of races left so he should have a good chance.
Red Bull will win because they can still make decent downforce from the floor even with a very thin rear wing. The Mercs etc., can't thanks to the rear floor rule change this year, so they'll need to either run some rear wing and be slow on the straights, or run little rear wing and lose out in the corners and suffer rear tyre issues. Red Bull will, therefore, have the best downforce/drag compromise. And the Honda PU is basically as good as the Merc now.

It's Red Bull's to lose, as is the rest of the season.
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nimoraca
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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The big question is whether the qualifying is going to be a disaster as has been the case last couple of years (with tow hunting).

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MV8
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:37 am
Mr.S wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:25 am
Mercedes, Mclaren & Ashton Martin should all do very well here. I wouldn't be surprised to see Williams in Q3. Mercedes have the best PU by a comfortable margin & a fresher PU so this pans out great for them.

This should be a Mercedes 1-2 with possibly a Norris podium. Russia should also suit them. Monza & Russia should be about damage limitation for RB. I think Max will be happy to take 2nd if both of these races. If he loses 14 points (leading by 5 now), he will be down by 9 only with a handful of races left so he should have a good chance.
Red Bull will win because they can still make decent downforce from the floor even with a very thin rear wing. The Mercs etc., can't thanks to the rear floor rule change this year, so they'll need to either run some rear wing and be slow on the straights, or run little rear wing and lose out in the corners and suffer rear tyre issues. Red Bull will, therefore, have the best downforce/drag compromise. And the Honda PU is basically as good as the Merc now.

It's Red Bull's to lose, as is the rest of the season.
I think that Merc will keep the gap anyway, in overall they are faster in the straights, so run some rear wing is not a problem, RB will take 2nd probably, but no win in Monza and Sochi
Ferrari, that's all

dxpetrov
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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I don't think RB had a chance at Monza, but Sochi should be ok. It's very similar to France, and we know what happened there. No.33 even took front row last year in front of Bottas.