2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:01 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:59 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:56 pm


Sky pushing a Max narrative? On this very forum are pics of brasil.
The ones with different perspectives? I wouldn't call them conclusive in any way at all. Other than some speculative and questionable pics, we have zero evidence of anything happening.
I found that quite telling. The problem is that it is super hard to get 2 pictures under the exact same perspective/distance. Car standing still and car at 260kmh or so.

The lower wing will have just bend backwards according to the scratch pattern, will be just one cm or so more room for light to peep through.
So your evidence for it existing is in fact a lack of evidence?

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:58 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:42 pm


Im not entirely sure about Max's lap, I would have to check, but Lewis' lap was all his final run in Q3. He went purple in all 3 sectors on that lap.
Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Last weekend isn't part of this year?
It has been highly unlikely until Brazil. Where Toto Wolff said, now we go all in. Suddenly Merc is dominant. A combination of engine (which they were allowed to reinforce) that can software be run in high mode for 4 races, lower wing bending and perhaps something else that I think was not used in Qatar anymore. In any case, purple purple purple, wasn’t the norm this season sofar, now it is.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:05 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:01 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:59 pm


The ones with different perspectives? I wouldn't call them conclusive in any way at all. Other than some speculative and questionable pics, we have zero evidence of anything happening.
I found that quite telling. The problem is that it is super hard to get 2 pictures under the exact same perspective/distance. Car standing still and car at 260kmh or so.

The lower wing will have just bend backwards according to the scratch pattern, will be just one cm or so more room for light to peep through.
So your evidence for it existing is in fact a lack of evidence?
The evidence is not by me but is posted here. The interpretation is done by each person on their own. I see light peeping through and the scratch pattern fits that exactly.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

michl420
michl420
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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I noticed that the exit where latifi came to stop had 3 m gavel just before it. It is impossible to roll a car there out. This track designer #-o.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:01 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:44 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm


Last weekend isn't part of this year?
No, it is part of the new rocket ship time.
We saw a really good F1 season with many errors of the top contenders and real fights. This was great. Last good example was the US GP with bottled Q3 runs.
Now we are back to Merc sandbagging it home, so no errors anymore.

So we can relax, call it a day and no more Max vs. Lewis yin yang necessary. We could really now enjoy the drama in F1.5, which was actually extremely good this race.
Unfortunately McL vs. Ferrari seems to be decided after the tire failure...
Relax man! Anything can still happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if Merc were hiding all season and brought the updates right at the end of the season. Might have explained why we barely see any changes on the car the whole season. It was more of a regulized 2020 car for this season and the beginning. Do we actually know where Merc used their update tokens all season? I thought that was a mystery at the start.

It could be a way to keep the competition busy. If RB smell a possible Championship win this season, then they push as hard as possible to chase for that. If the differences between Max and Lewis are that small, then RB would need a final push to gain momentum.

Meanwhile Merc might already have all these upgrades on the PU side of things ready early on, but just waited till the right moment (like right at the end of the season when most teams would have already done all their updates and shift momentum to next season). It could also be a strategy to blindside RB in focussing more on this season than 2022.
Yeah, a read that a lot from a certain crowd.

So, do you think it is impossible for Max to still win this, or even highly unlikely. I still don’t, I still hope he can win like you just told the other person. So is that really the strategy?

More likely is, they went “all in” like Toto said. With a drs opening a tad too much, a beefed up engine with new mappings and a lower wing that seems to bend backwards and who knows what else all these teams are doing that we don’t know.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:58 pm


Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Last weekend isn't part of this year?
It has been highly unlikely until Brazil. Where Toto Wolff said, now we go all in. Suddenly Merc is dominant. A combination of engine (which they were allowed to reinforce) that can software be run in high mode for 4 races, lower wing bending and perhaps something else that I think was not used in Qatar anymore. In any case, purple purple purple, wasn’t the norm this season sofar, now it is.
You're now just making up more bits with zero evidence...

Hamilton was technically on pole in Turkey and Bottas was P2, Bottas P1 in Mexico and Hamilton P2, they were P1 & P3 in Brazil and now P1 & P3 in Losail. Heck, they were probably going to be P1&P2 in Russia before the sudden rain, and were P1 and P2 in Monza as well.

Red Bull have carefully created a narrative that the media and many surrounding it are buying into. The bendy wing is just another part of that along with the "super-mega-nuclear-engine" too.

The performance has been there for a while, but people will just choose to ignore it.
Felipe Baby!

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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michl420 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:08 pm
I noticed that the exit where latifi came to stop had 3 m gavel just before it. It is impossible to roll a car there out. This track designer #-o.
Indeed, they had no asfalt behind the gravel anywhere. But is is a motoGP track.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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I think this wing theory is a red herring. I’ll be surprised if it turns out later that the wing was not legal under new tests that other wings are legal by.


No-rake drs is the silver bullet with these beefed up engines, plus whatever else they figured out about the car set up wise. It has clearly been optimised fully now. I want to know what they did with the tokens.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:07 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:05 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:01 pm


I found that quite telling. The problem is that it is super hard to get 2 pictures under the exact same perspective/distance. Car standing still and car at 260kmh or so.

The lower wing will have just bend backwards according to the scratch pattern, will be just one cm or so more room for light to peep through.
So your evidence for it existing is in fact a lack of evidence?
The evidence is not by me but is posted here. The interpretation is done by each person on their own. I see light peeping through and the scratch pattern fits that exactly.
Well, if you choose to believe that it exists from those 'comparison' pics then I guess it's up to you, but you're making very sweeping statements- or even accusations- based on basically nothing.

It's worth pointing out that in the comparison photos you're referring to with the gif overlay, it's not even the same car at the same time. You can tell because the t wing is different in the supposed comparison, in addition to the angle of the picture being significantly different. There are also plenty of shots of other cars from similar angles showing a tiny gap between the upper and lower element, just like on the MB

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:18 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm


Last weekend isn't part of this year?
It has been highly unlikely until Brazil. Where Toto Wolff said, now we go all in. Suddenly Merc is dominant. A combination of engine (which they were allowed to reinforce) that can software be run in high mode for 4 races, lower wing bending and perhaps something else that I think was not used in Qatar anymore. In any case, purple purple purple, wasn’t the norm this season sofar, now it is.
You're now just making up more bits with zero evidence...

Hamilton was technically on pole in Turkey and Bottas was P2, Bottas P1 in Mexico and Hamilton P2, they were P1 & P3 in Brazil and now P1 & P3 in Losail. Heck, they were probably going to be P1&P2 in Russia before the sudden rain, and were P1 and P2 in Monza as well.

Red Bull have carefully created a narrative that the media and many surrounding it are buying into. The bendy wing is just another part of that along with the "super-mega-nuclear-engine" too.

The performance has been there for a while, but people will just choose to ignore it.
Toto talks about the rocket engine himself. Yes Mercedes have been pulling the momentum to them. Even in Turkey Bottas was untouchable. But Max in the race could always answer, even got some poles. Brazil was something else though.

Let’s see what happens in Jeddah. I hope the wing test at least should work (nobody knows it will) and make any suspicion there go away. When earlier in the season RBR had a bendy wing I believe the word was “the principal” it was within the limits but aero should not move. So why now think different. If there is any chance there might be moving aero there, just make sure it is not. For The sake of “the principal”.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:18 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm


Last weekend isn't part of this year?
It has been highly unlikely until Brazil. Where Toto Wolff said, now we go all in. Suddenly Merc is dominant. A combination of engine (which they were allowed to reinforce) that can software be run in high mode for 4 races, lower wing bending and perhaps something else that I think was not used in Qatar anymore. In any case, purple purple purple, wasn’t the norm this season sofar, now it is.
You're now just making up more bits with zero evidence...

Hamilton was technically on pole in Turkey and Bottas was P2, Bottas P1 in Mexico and Hamilton P2, they were P1 & P3 in Brazil and now P1 & P3 in Losail. Heck, they were probably going to be P1&P2 in Russia before the sudden rain, and were P1 and P2 in Monza as well.

Red Bull have carefully created a narrative that the media and many surrounding it are buying into. The bendy wing is just another part of that along with the "super-mega-nuclear-engine" too.

The performance has been there for a while, but people will just choose to ignore it.
You are right. But Monza was right at the starting point of the engine swappery. That was when Ham was on a basically new engine and this was the first time they unleashed the beast in Bot car. The surprising thing is only, that no one really took notice of it.
The rear wing stuff...I do not know. I also think there is not much in the current theory with the scratches. But the issue is, that you still can not explain the top speed of Ham in Brazil with only the engine....and further...suddenly the top speed is normal in Qatar with a simple load test???
Saudi will tell more with the good engine back in the car. I do not believe yet the rear wing theory.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:24 pm
Let’s see what happens in Jeddah. I hope the wing test at least should work (nobody knows it will) and make any suspicion there go away. When earlier in the season RBR had a bendy wing I believe the word was “the principal” it was within the limits but aero should not move. So why now think different. If there is any chance there might be moving aero there, just make sure it is not. For The sake of “the principal”.
shared in the team thread!
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WaikeCU
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:16 pm
Yeah, a read that a lot from a certain crowd.

So, do you think it is impossible for Max to still win this, or even highly unlikely. I still don’t, I still hope he can win like you just told the other person. So is that really the strategy?
That strategy is a theory. :wink:

There's always chance Max will win it. Next race could be chaotic. I mean if it resembles any of the Baku races, then we are in for a couple of SC's and maybe red flags and if there's debris, then you for sure know what carbonfibre particles can do to tires. It's all to play for!

We might even get a surprise in a maiden win in all the chaos.

But if Merc continues the pace it had for the past couple of races, then for sure I see them having a high chance winning it.
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:16 pm
More likely is, they went “all in” like Toto said. With a drs opening a tad too much, a beefed up engine with new mappings and a lower wing that seems to bend backwards and who knows what else all these teams are doing that we don’t know.
"All in" is pure marketing/PR stuff. That's what Toto would like you to think of perhaps.

If you beef up an engine then for sure the fuel flow needs to be worked out as well, because you can't exceed the amount of fuel. If the pace they have now is because they've opened up the engine more, because the PU is new and we only have a few more races to go with that engine, then that would mean it uses more fuel (that's what I think), but something tells me that engine isn't opened up, but is just upgraded as part of an update.
Last edited by WaikeCU on Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Indeed, I too see a high chance of drama. The track will likely be slippery? And the walls are everywhere. The sim laps on YouTube are just insane. Scary.

Edit, I do think Toto for sure let’s sometimes more shine through then even he intends. I know he is a good shadows player. But still, sometimes he just seem to can’t help himself.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:20 pm
I didn’t like the number of tyres just going pop without warning. I’m sure I heard one of the Williams cars had only gone 25 laps on their hard tyres when the failure happened. Whether that’s the case or not I am not sure, but it shouldn’t be happening.
Something strange happened for sure… Norris did less laps on the Hards that puncture than he did on the Softs