2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:15 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:20 pm
I didn’t like the number of tyres just going pop without warning. I’m sure I heard one of the Williams cars had only gone 25 laps on their hard tyres when the failure happened. Whether that’s the case or not I am not sure, but it shouldn’t be happening.
Something strange happened for sure… Norris did less laps on the Hards that puncture than he did on the Softs
I'm betting front wing strakes, or other front wing components got knocked off by curbs and punctured the tires. The curbs didn't look very agressive from what i saw in video footage and track walk photos. However the drivers where hitting them way harder than they normally do. High speed and heavily loaded on corner exit!
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Incognito
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Great news! I was rewatching Pre-Quali on Sky and Horner had some great information about Mercedes' rear wing. As part of RBR's attempt to understand "Mercedes exponential straight line speed" there was a "Full fact finding mission after Quali" by the FIA that was going to thoroughly investigate the mysterious rear wing. When pressed for actual evidence of illegal behaviour by the wing, Horner went on to explain "you can't see it, because it's hidden by the flap." However, "we can see it moving over 250kph. That's what's happening to our car." He then went on to explain that the unrelated but consistent flapping of the RBR wing was "stalling it" which "doesn't help the car go faster."

As we've not heard of the Full fact finding mission finding any facts that support Red Bull's claims, I assume we can now put this to bed?

For those interested in getting a more accurate picture than my traduced comments, it's about 45minutes into the Sky Qualifying show, about 20 mins before Q1 starts.

Personally, I'm fascinated to discover what the Mercedes PU people have been doing that's produced 'exponential straight line speed'...

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Incognito wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:40 pm
Great news! I was rewatching Pre-Quali on Sky and Horner had some great information about Mercedes' rear wing. As part of RBR's attempt to understand "Mercedes exponential straight line speed" there was a "Full fact finding mission after Quali" by the FIA that was going to thoroughly investigate the mysterious rear wing. When pressed for actual evidence of illegal behaviour by the wing, Horner went on to explain "you can't see it, because it's hidden by the flap." However, "we can see it moving over 250kph. That's what's happening to our car." He then went on to explain that the unrelated but consistent flapping of the RBR wing was "stalling it" which "doesn't help the car go faster."

As we've not heard of the Full fact finding mission finding any facts that support Red Bull's claims, I assume we can now put this to bed?

For those interested in getting a more accurate picture than my traduced comments, it's about 45minutes into the Sky Qualifying show, about 20 mins before Q1 starts.

Personally, I'm fascinated to discover what the Mercedes PU people have been doing that's produced 'exponential straight line speed'...
So- "you can't see it, because it's hidden by the flap." However, "we can see it moving...
No one can see it, but they can? Not really confidence inspiring is it?
Mankind did not invent the laws of mathematics, we rediscovered them.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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The fact finding mission is done by the FIA. They have measured all cars. Will do so again the last 2 races and then all cars must pass the test. Now it was Just a base line measurement as they called it. Who or who has not passed the test was not published and was of no consequence to the Qatar race. Mercedes published themselves as posted above by Dans.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Imho, everything Horner is doing is to protect Max and his image and Red Bull and its image.

He can see that Max is looking to get spanked by Merc and their fully developed 2021 car so instead of the narrative that Lewis is just faster, it must be down to something extra amazingly special and probably illegal on the W12 that Max suddenly is not winning back to back races he was not too long ago.

Its all to take pressure of Max and his performance, as well as RB and their development falling behind the Mercs.

its actually just really petty, unsporstmanlike rubbish actually isn't it?

Its not that Max isn't the best driver in 2021, its that Lewis is cheating. Here's my zero evidence to prove it.

It's not that RB isn't the best team in 2021, its that Merc are cheating. Here's my zero evidence to prove it.


It's all excuses to save face, because when you have a culture of never taking responsibility combined with the pressure of "produce the goods or you're getting replaced", you kind of have to sell your soul and say/do everything to protect your own ass and not have any fingers pointed at you for when the blame game starts.

cheeRS
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Maybe this speed advantage has to do with what James Allison said at the beginning of the season - something to the effect of "you'll know where we used the tokens when it becomes evident"

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:09 pm
Maybe this speed advantage has to do with what James Allison said at the beginning of the season - something to the effect of "you'll know where we used the tokens when it becomes evident"
Maybe, But i don't think you could get rear squat and floor stalling done with just 2 tokens. I think it would be something they have been working on and or planning to do for a while.
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GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:09 pm
Maybe this speed advantage has to do with what James Allison said at the beginning of the season - something to the effect of "you'll know where we used the tokens when it becomes evident"
Aero? Maybe spent tokens on higher rake design it but took a while to adapt onto the car?

Engine? Maybe a new engine design that needed a lot of iteration to achieve the required reliability/power output?

Suspension? Maybe a new suspension setup that uses the cars natural disposition to change aerodynamic angle of attack under acceleration/deceleration more effectively?

Weight balancing/removal? Don't know any example of that to give.


It doesn't really seem so evident to me. If I was to guess based on the fact that he said it would become obvious at some point, I think it would have to be aero as that's the biggest change I can see.

djones
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:09 pm
Maybe this speed advantage has to do with what James Allison said at the beginning of the season - something to the effect of "you'll know where we used the tokens when it becomes evident"
As the season has gone on I personally took the comment as it will be more evident.... next year.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:58 pm
The fact finding mission is done by the FIA. They have measured all cars. Will do so again the last 2 races and then all cars must pass the test. Now it was Just a base line measurement as they called it. Who or who has not passed the test was not published and was of no consequence to the Qatar race. Mercedes published themselves as posted above by Dans.
Could u post link of where the fia is doing this as fact finding mission due to redbull's gaslighting ?
And also link or source for claims that next 2 races they are going to do it and everyone needs to pass it.

Thank you

aral
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Could we please get back to the actual GP rather than speculation about Merc and RBR teams.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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justmoi
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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So to confirm some facts, Mercedes used the same rear wing used in Brazil in Qatar. And it has passed the new fia tests, even though what that tests is not even in the regulations.
The difference between Qatar and Brazil Mercedes is that an older engine was used, not the engine Lewis used in Brazil. Everything else was the same, bar track specific set ups of course.
Redbull ended up using their max downforce wing as the other one they wanted to use with slightly less downforce was still oscillating and couldn't be fixed. Turned out the max downforce wing was the best set up for them in the end (there's a team that know what they're doing)
Nothing as seen by anyone (except Horner) in F1 has shown that Mercedes is cheating in anyway
There was no real straight line speed loss between both cars in Qatar but Mercedes creamed quali and were a bit better in race. Gaining ground on the corners even with redbull's max downforce package. For those that like to look into difference of engine and chassis
Mercedes (by their own admission) have not brought any upgrade to the car since Silverstone. They've been working on how to unlock its inherent speed. Seems like they've finally nailed it. The car was rebuilt from the ground up after Mexico after they were perplexed how they locked out quali and then couldn't keep up on race pace. I think we have all been witness to the performance of the car swinging erratically through the year.
Last edited by justmoi on Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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justmoi wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:20 pm
Mercedes (by their own admission) have not brought any upgrade to the car since Silverstone. They've been working on how to unlock its inherent speed. Seems like they've finally nailed it. The car was rebuilt from the ground up after Mexico after they were perplexed how they locked out quali and then couldn't keep up on race pace. I think we have all been witness to the performance of the car swinging erratically through the year.
They haven't brought any major upgrades, just little stuff, like this weekend they had slightly different fins on the upper surface of the floor.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:55 pm
Incognito wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:40 pm
Great news! I was rewatching Pre-Quali on Sky and Horner had some great information about Mercedes' rear wing. As part of RBR's attempt to understand "Mercedes exponential straight line speed" there was a "Full fact finding mission after Quali" by the FIA that was going to thoroughly investigate the mysterious rear wing. When pressed for actual evidence of illegal behaviour by the wing, Horner went on to explain "you can't see it, because it's hidden by the flap." However, "we can see it moving over 250kph. That's what's happening to our car." He then went on to explain that the unrelated but consistent flapping of the RBR wing was "stalling it" which "doesn't help the car go faster."

As we've not heard of the Full fact finding mission finding any facts that support Red Bull's claims, I assume we can now put this to bed?

For those interested in getting a more accurate picture than my traduced comments, it's about 45minutes into the Sky Qualifying show, about 20 mins before Q1 starts.

Personally, I'm fascinated to discover what the Mercedes PU people have been doing that's produced 'exponential straight line speed'...
So- "you can't see it, because it's hidden by the flap." However, "we can see it moving...
No one can see it, but they can? Not really confidence inspiring is it?
:lol:

dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:24 pm
They haven't brought any major upgrades, just little stuff, like this weekend they had slightly different fins on the upper surface of the floor.
Can you provide me a link to the photos illustrating this? is it in the W12 thread??

justmoi wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:20 pm
So to confirm some facts, Mercedes used the same rear wing used in Brazil in Qatar. And it has passed the new fia tests, even though what that tests is not even in the regulations.
The difference between Qatar and Brazil Mercedes is that an older engine was used, not the engine Lewis used in Brazil. Everything else was the same, bar track specific set ups of course.
Redbull ended up using their max downforce wing as the other one they wanted to use with slightly less downforce was still oscillating and couldn't be fixed. Turned out the max downforce wing was the best set up for them in the end (there's a team that know what they're doing)
Nothing as seen by anyone (except Horner) in F1 has shown that Mercedes is cheating in anyway
There was no real straight line speed loss between both cars in Qatar but Mercedes creamed quali and were a bit better in race. Gaining ground on the corners even with redbull's max downforce package. For those that like to look into difference of car and chassis
Mercedes (by their own admission) have not brought any upgrade to the car since Silverstone. They've been working on how to unlock its inherent speed. Seems like they've finally nailed it. The car was rebuilt from the ground up after Mexico after they were perplexed how they locked out quali and then couldn't keep up on race pace. I think we have all been witness to the performance of the car swinging erratically through the year.
Where is this from? what source are you citing from?