Chinese GP 2007

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lane27
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Joined: 07 Oct 2007, 22:16

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hello, sorry may be my bad english but i think i put it well

may be you are surprised for my comment about the englishmen, forget it please, but from our point of view it seems like Alonso is fighting against England with all that english bosses in F1 and their bizarre decisions like to punish kubica because he hitted Hamilton and a million more, i don´t think kubica deserved that in the same way Vettel were not punished fot hitting Alonso

if you are surprised for the fact of the tyres because you didn´t know it... then the news you read don´t tell you all things, in fact i didn´t see that theme of the tyres in this web F1Technical.Net, if somebody can put me the link...

and if you don´t understand another thing, then explain please

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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Oy, hold on, this is all getting very hostile, now I'm all for a good English-bashing but not on a very international and very public forum.

Like it or not England is very important to F1, thats why almost every team is based here and why none other than Fernando Alonso is sponsoring several students to study here in the hope that they'll make it to F1 today and represent his country.

As to their honour, you cannot attack an entire nation for a quality which few people on a global scale seem to have.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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lane 27 has been advised by PM about courtesy on the F1 Technical Forum and out of respect and as a new member has edited his original post and acknowledged his error. Courtesy has been offered and restored.

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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The spy-gate saga and shenanigans this year have bought the passion out in people more than ever on this forum for sure. I think we need to just keep the spirit of F1 technical as level, civil discussions and leave the crap to the mainstream media and cat-fight message-boards elsewhere.

This is the home of quality F1 discussion and some of the prolific posters have huge industry/engineering experience. They will be the first people to stop coming here if every discussion turns into a sledge-fest with completely outlandish claims being made based on nothing more than blind passion.

Rob W

lane27
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Joined: 07 Oct 2007, 22:16

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ok then i will say something technical, i don´t know how they did in Japan, i think it was low pressure in the back tyres and that´s why Alonso realiced he was skiding from the back in Q3 in Japan

In China it was in all the fourth tyres, the way that some people say that mecanics did it was to put extremely high temperature at the blankets for the tyres, so the presure at the tyres was very high and unusual, that´s why the strange bad result of Alonso in Q3 in China, in fact i just know that the presure at the tyres in Q3 China was very high, the way they do it i don´t know if it was that exactly

Sorry for all the rest, i don´t want to destroy the forum

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
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lane27 wrote:In China it was in all the fourth tyres, the way that some people say that mecanics did it was to put extremely high temperature at the blankets for the tyres, so the presure at the tyres was very high and unusual, that´s why the strange bad result of Alonso in Q3 in China,
Did you stop to think he was just slow? Mechanics do not decide on tyre pressures, the drivers engineer does, no doubt in careful collaboration with Bridgestone. Why would Alonso's engineer want him to fail?
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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@lane27
Googling "Fernando Alonso tire pressure " turned up this:

speedtv
"In a press conference in Shanghai on Thursday Alonso was asked whether the team could have handicapped him with unfavorable tire pressures or other car settings."

The Timesonline
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_ ... anshi.html

Here we go onto the most dangerous ground. In my humble view - and I was sitting just a few feet from him at the press conference at the Shanghai circuit on Thursday - Fernando said, in terms, that McLaren is now in the business of doctoring his race car. In my report in today's paper, I described, the key sequence in the press conference as follows:

This latest threat to Hamilton's charge to world championship glory came as his bitter rival at McLaren Mercedes, Fernando Alonso, gave the clear impression at an official FIA press conference in Shanghai that he believes the team are doctoring his race car to ensure that Hamilton wins the title.

Alonso who crashed in Japan and is now 12 points behind Hamilton with just this weekend's race in Shanghai and Brazilian Grand Prix in two weeks time to come, was asked whether he believes he was treated in a fair way by McLaren in Japan or whether "the team favour Lewis by making subtle changes to your car, like tyre pressures or wing settings?"

In reply Alonso, who has been complaining all season that McLaren favours Hamilton over him, made no attempt to deny the claim. "Difficult question," he said pausing for emphasis, "I will not answer." No one who heard him could be in any doubt what his intended meaning was and indeed Spanish journalists close to Alonso said he has been saying as much privately for some time."

Edit - All very strange ... I think I'll go out too - for a drink :wink:
Last edited by Carlos on 08 Oct 2007, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.

lane27
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Joined: 07 Oct 2007, 22:16

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of course i can´t know, all i can do it´s to put you the things spanish press say, here it comes (in spanish, sorry, if you want me to translate i can try but not tonigth because i have to leave)



El exceso de calentamiento de las ruedas es una de las maneras de perjudicar a un piloto sin que éste se dé cuenta al volante. El neumático pierde agarre de manera global y después no hay manera de demostrarlo". Son palabras de Jacques Laffite, ex piloto de Fórmula 1 y comentarista de la televisión francesa. Esta es la hipótesis que maneja Fernando Alonso, que vio cómo los tiempos en la calificación no salieron pese a que no cometió ningún error. El ovetense perdió en todos los parciales, pero especialmente en el segundo, de curvas enlazadas sin descanso que exigen más al compuesto blando. Sólo el neumático más tierno puede ser manipulado de esta manera, justo el tipo de juego que le pusieron en boxes para su último intento.

De confirmarse, algo que podrán saber si ven un desgaste excesivo cuando el coche vuelva hoy del parque cerrado, el asturiano se encontraría ante la segunda maniobra consecutiva en dos semanas decisivas para el Mundial. Ya en Fuji le tocaron las presiones de las ruedas traseras y perdió la pole por ese motivo. La televisión italiana 'Mediaset' contaba ayer que el accidente del asturiano en la carrera japonesa se debió a unas presiones incorrectas.

Según decían en una de sus informaciones, las colocaron algo más bajas para que al ovetense le asolara el graining y no acosara a Lewis Hamilton. Con el paso de las vueltas la presión disparatada de esos compuestos terminó por generar la salida de pista. Si eso es cierto, estarían jugando con la propia integridad del piloto para que no ganara el título mundial.

Volviendo a Shanghai, para elevar en exceso la temperatura del neumático hay que subir los grados de la manta térmica que los envuelve. Es tan sencillo como eso. El motor, según se pudo ver en la telemetría, no ha sido manipulado. Igual que sucedió en Japón, todo fue bien hasta el último cambio de ruedas. De hecho, la diferencia en contra respecto a Hamilton era de 144 milésimas. Justo el hándicap por las dos vueltas de más de gasolina con las que salió a la carrera el asturiano.

Después del último intento se alargó a casi seis décimas con su rival sin error de pilotaje alguno. Hamilton marcó la pole con una gran vuelta y se colocó más cerca del título (hoy, la carrera, 08:00 Telecinco y TV3). En cuanto a los Ferrari, Kimi Raikkonen, muy cargado, terminó a una décima del británico, con Felipe Massa a su espalda. Nada más bajarse del coche, el asturiano se fue como un rayo a su habitación, se desvistió y salió como un cohete, y después de un sonoro portazo, a pedir explicaciones a su ingenieros. Era consciente de que le habían vuelto a perjudicar en sus aspiraciones de arrebatarle el título mundial a la joven estrella británica. El tifón Krosa, previsto para la hora de la carrera, se acercaba ayer a Shanghai, y puede descargar la lluvia que suena a esperanza para Alonso.



That is, i think similar things are in italian and french press, may be it´s a lie but is a thing ALL spanish press say, not something that say only one paper

So if you can´t find it in english press, then the true it´s that or spanish press is liyng or english press is hiding it, wich case it is it´s hateful

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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How about Alonso being 4 laps worth of fuel heavier? He was a little less than 7 tenths slower in Q3, that's about 0.175 sec. per lap. Isn't that reasonable?

Ron's statement about Hamilton's race is indeed somewhat strange, but I must admit that it doesn't necessarily mean they are actively involved, they might have just picked up an obvious favorite, which doesn't make it right.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Well, I read the

article. To me it seems that it's very noncommittal, never claiming that any allegation is actually true. The saying about grasping at straws came to mind. Alonso himself in fact only refused to answer a question about manipulation and tyre pressures, which amounts to the same kind of non-liable vagueness - and he has a financial incentive in some other kind of termination of his contract at McLaren than resigning and having to pay a restitution for breach of contract.

One way to achieve this is to cause so much trouble that it's cheaper to let him go, for fear of an FIA investigation into claims of manipulation, for example. Or better yet to cause an investigation in the hopes of finding even the slightest improper action in order to claim that the team itself has breached his contract. It could even be that the question was less than a coincidence because it has already been pointed out that tyre heat manipulation is very hard to prove. On a general level it can also be stated that if one is prone to imagine conspiracies, one is bound to see those everywhere.

Anyway, on Friday Ron Dennis already responded to this speculation - quote from the official F1 site (link):
Q: (Ed Gorman – The Times) Ron, yesterday Fernando was asked whether he thought he’d been treated fairly by the team in Japan and specifically whether his car had been doctored by the team in terms of tyre pressures and wing settings and he specifically declined to answer the question which gave the impression to most of us in the room that he feels that there may be some grounds to believe that the team is interfering with his car. Could you comment on that please?

RD: Well, you introduced the word doctored. I don’t think that was a word that was used in the question or the answer to it. Going into the Japanese Grand Prix Fernando was two points behind Lewis. I think the Grand Prix season so far, in respect of our two cars, their reliability, their competitiveness and the way that our team has conducted itself leaves nobody in Formula One with the view that we do anything other than provide equality to both of our drivers. There are numerous equality clauses in our contracts. They are reciprocal in both drivers’ contracts and it is a well known fact that we do not favour – even in very very difficult circumstances, even in the level of competitiveness and the spirit of competitiveness that sits between our drivers – we never will, never have and certainly are not favouring either driver at the moment. This is a straight fight and I’m obviously disappointed that someone who really has all the knowledge should not be more direct and open with the response which is: equality is how we run our team.
Anyway, Bridgestone has an army of liaison engineers at hand for the teams, and especially the teams' race engineers during the race weekends. They follow up all the testing, document all the the tyres very minutely afterwards (also with pictures) and give recommendations about tyre pressures and warmths. They are not team staff, but Bridgestone employees and I suspect if the teams went against their orders or there was unusual or unexpected tyre wear or something like that at odds with consistent results they'd notice that kind of stuff pretty quickly. There are many articles about this on the Bridgestone website.

It can also be noted that while Alonso is a very all around driver, his most consistent Achilles' heel has been understanding the tyres. During his title fights while at Renault, every now and then he had an off race because he couldn't protect his tyres at certain races and conditions, something that was partly attributed to the aggressive way he took the corners. This is well documented. He also had at least partly tyre related problems during early season.

Meanwhile Hamilton has also suffered heavily from tyre problems, often far more catastrophic ones by comparison (delamination i.e. straightforward failure at Turkey and China), plus a puncture caused by a defective wheel gun setting at Nürnburgring. Hamilton hasn't cried wolf, though, even if Alonso has even volunteered that he pays bonuses to engineers when he beats his team mate (if I understood that correctly).

Anything is possible. But against the backround of how things are going and what systems and protocols are generally in place, as I see it, thus far tyre blanket/ tyre pressure manipulation sounds farfetched. To me, there are much more compelling developments afoot in the world of Formula One than this. But I'm interested to see what other perspectives more knowledgeable/ better informed/ imaginative people can come up with. We can learn about F1 tyres and setups in the process, no doubt.

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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:oops: Repeat Post Deleted. :oops:

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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FLC wrote:How about Alonso being 4 laps worth of fuel heavier? He was a little less than 7 tenths slower in Q3, that's about 0.175 sec. per lap. Isn't that reasonable?
Maybe not after all. It seems he's missing about 2 tenths.
Luca Baldisserri wrote:If you are able to do an easy calculation - I don't know if you are able - you could see that Kimi had at least four laps more fuel and in these circuit, four laps is nearly half a second so if you are able to do an easy calculation you can see that our performance in qualifying was really good yesterday.
Thats leaves quite a big gap which when you add in Alonso's results from practice in comparison to Hamilton's must mean he either made a serious mistake or...

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Spencifer_Murphy
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I doubt that Mclaren have hindered Alonso's car at all, I mean sure all of a sudden after being off the pace thoughout the session suddenly Hamilton is faster than Alonso in quali, but we must also remember than in doing his he also leap-frogged the Ferrari's - of which the Mclaren team have no influence over the pace of.

So Lewis beating Fernando in Q3 @ Shanghai was down to increased speed from Lewis car.
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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FLC wrote:Thats leaves quite a big gap which when you add in Alonso's results from practice in comparison to Hamilton's must mean he either made a serious mistake or...
You're assuming that

the extra weight has a linear effect on laptimes. That may or may not be, but the mid section of the Shanghai circuit is the only one not featuring a long straight. Meanwhile, Ron Dennis has yet again commented on Alonso's future employment with the team. Autosport: McLaren won't rush Alonso decision (link):
Ron Dennis wrote:We'll address the issue of drivers in respect of 2008 after Brazil. ... We've said that all the way along. We've got binding contracts with both drivers and until any dialogue is opened up after the next race, that's the way it will remain.
I guess it's not in one's best interest to assume that a man who opted to pay 100.000.000$ rather than be pushed around will fold to pressure the next time around. And after the "spygate" I'm confident there isn't a mechanic, engineer, technician, PR person or caterer in the team who wouldn't be aware of what the ramifications of doing something unbeknownst to the team management or untoward towards a driver (or giving the slightest excuse for FIA to butt in) can amount to. Especially as there seemingly are people around just waiting for anyone to drop the ball.

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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checkered wrote:You're assuming that the extra weight has a linear effect on laptimes. That may or may not be, but the mid section of the Shanghai circuit is the only one not featuring a long straight.
It was a question in my first post, as I didn't really know what was the effect of the fuel load. In fact, I even assumed it was quite reasonable.
But after Baldisserri confirmed it was about half a second, I started wondering even more about this, and it does look strange as no one at McLaren, not even Alonso, said he had made a mistake in that lap.
Spencifer_Murphy wrote:So Lewis beating Fernando in Q3 @ Shanghai was down to increased speed from Lewis car.
That's just another way to look at the same thing, isn't it? :lol:
checkered wrote:I guess it's not in one's best interest to assume that a man who opted to pay 100.000.000$ rather than be pushed around will fold to pressure the next time around.
You mean opted to pay 100M$(!!!) rather than fight for his lie?