Monaco GP 2008

[WhiteBlue]

there is no way that kimi could have made it. he is on the inside of Adrian and hits left of the center. Adrian clearly brakes and turns in and only in the last moment before Kimi hits gives opposite lock to evade and go strait. for Kimi to avoid him he would have had to get his whole car width to the left and that would not have worked. Kimi was also going left already.

[Mikey_s]

I think it was a racing incident and, as with normal rules of the road, if you hit someone from behind it's normally your fault... having said that Sutil was on opposite lock before Kimi hit him.. that doesn't make it Sutil's fault in my book, but I don't think Sutil was going to make the chicane..

There was a substantial speed differnece between the two of them, probably because Kimi was trying to keep the car from flipping round...

It's regrettable for both drivers, but that's racing. You can't blame Kimi for trying so hard at that stage of the race to get another point, and I'm certain that it was not the intention to put Sutil into a 'yield or crash' situation.

[bizadfar]

there is no way that kimi could have made it. he is on the inside of Adrian and hits left of the center. Adrian clearly brakes and turns in and only in the last moment before Kimi hits gives opposite lock to evade and go strait. for Kimi to avoid him he would have had to get his whole car width to the left and that would not have worked. Kimi was also going left already.

I've seen your avatar on another forum, where do you live?

Anyway, the replay clearly shows before contact, Adrian was slightly losing the rear on turn in which explains the opposite lock.

(insert blasphemy), the bickering about this small issue is ridiculous. Especially from you white_blue, every single post I've read from you suggests you know 100% and have no doubts. Too much confidence/cockyness can be awful u know?

[axle]

OMG I can't believe there is even a discussion about it...

Racing accident. Kimi wasn't trying anything ambitious he was trying to brake for the chicane...he locked the rear and at that point as he lost braking effort of the rear wheels...this meant he couldn't stop in the "normal" distance. It's a feature of the lack of electronic engine braking systems, the rear is less stable.

Sutil could have parked on the track and it is still down to the driver behind to avoid him...it did look like Sutil was having his own issue on cold tyres into the chicane, but that's neither here nor there. But again if Sutil had of finished he could well have been stripped of his points for overtaking under yellow (4 cars!) so really he'd already shot himself in the foot. That's not taking anything away from his drive, he managed to run a clean race and keep it within the barriers all the way which is more than can be said for some!

[WhiteBlue]

there is no way that kimi could have made it. he is on the inside of Adrian and hits left of the center. Adrian clearly brakes and turns in and only in the last moment before Kimi hits gives opposite lock to evade and go strait. for Kimi to avoid him he would have had to get his whole car width to the left and that would not have worked. Kimi was also going left already.

I've seen your avatar on another forum, where do you live?

Anyway, the replay clearly shows before contact, Adrian was slightly losing the rear on turn in which explains the opposite lock.

(insert blasphemy), the bickering about this small issue is ridiculous. Especially from you white_blue, every single post I've read from you suggests you know 100% and have no doubts. Too much confidence/cockyness can be awful u know?

every single post of me shows a signature asking people politely to discuss with me if they have different opinions. so if I have failed to meet expectations in humbleness or have been too assertive about my views I apologise most defferentially to whoever harbours hurt feelings.

I agree that this issue is insubstantial. nevertheless one can have different opinion s about Adrian's chances to make the corner. I happen to think that he would have made it if he had not been threatened to be rammed from behind. if someone thinks he would not have made it he can honestly hold the opposite opinion and I would still be a happy camper.

[yzfr7]

What amazed me is that it was very similar to Coulthard's accident on Saturday, both loosing the rear under braking, the rear going to the left, exactly the same point. Raikkonen could at least save it (from the wall), while Coulthard seemed to be in a much less brake-balanced car.

About Sutil, could it be that he saw Kimi all over the place and tried to brake late? Though with all complaints about the current mirrors I doubt that...

[tinhouse]

What amazed me is that it was very similar to Coulthard's accident on Saturday, both loosing the rear under braking, the rear going to the left, exactly the same point.

I think there's a reason for that. If you look at the slow motion replay at the end of the Youtube clip, you can see that both cars are destabilised by a bump at the top of the hill. Sutil hits it and his back steps out but he just holds it. Raikkonen isn't so lucky and gets into a massive tank slapper. The Red Bull behind both of them clearly runs slightly wider, possibly to avoid the same thing? It'd be interesting to see more shots from that same angle to see what line other drivers take. But it would explain the similar crashes.

So I wonder if Sutil went the wrong way and Raikkonen was just in that zone drivers talk about where you end up following the car in front, and simply repeated the mistake.

It also looks to me like that was the point Sutil blew his chance of making the chicane cleanly. The momentum of the car is all wrong as he comes down the hill and it looks to me like he's fighting to load up the outside tyres. I think on balance of probabilities he would have made the turn in some fashion but it would have been a hell of a mess. Whether or not he was aware of Kimi bearing down on him, I think he had his hands full just trying to get the front round.

So ironically I wonder if Kimi was actually the big loser. If Sutil was out of shape through the chicane it might have opened the door for Raikkonen to pass on the exit.

Matt.

[WhiteBlue]

Kimi was on cold tyres and probably forgot about it or he would not have had the problem.

[bizadfar]

Kimi was on cold tyres and probably forgot about it or he would not have had the problem.

since when does a driver forget, esp since engineers are always saying, warm this and that up.

btw signature is like a disclaimer, your posts are not expressed as opinions but as fact [-X

What amazed me is that it was very similar to Coulthard's accident on Saturday, both loosing the rear under braking, the rear going to the left, exactly the same point. Raikkonen could at least save it (from the wall), while Coulthard seemed to be in a much less brake-balanced car.

About Sutil, could it be that he saw Kimi all over the place and tried to brake late? Though with all complaints about the current mirrors I doubt that...

Or Raikkonen just has faster reactions than Coulthard to keep it off the wall? lol...

no.

[tinhouse]

Or Raikkonen just has faster reactions than Coulthard to keep it off the wall? lol...

no.

In which case Sutil must have faster reactions that both of them because he did keep it off the wall Granted he was in 10 kinds of trouble when he got to the chicane but at least he'd probably have made it round in one piece.

Actually I didn't really think through that last bit of my earlier post. To say that Kimi could have overtaken if he hadn't got into the fishtail was a bit silly of me really. He did get into it and so he blew it, and took Sutil with him.

Matt.

[roost89]

When I saw that on TV, I thought Sutil was way off line. I don't think Kimi was too much too blame as his car was wild! It was a wonder he didn't plow into the wall.
I think it was both Sutil and Kimi's fault. Sutil being off-line and thus inadvertently blocking Kimi's "escape route" and being hit by a wild Ferrari.
Plus Kimi did apologise to him, so accepted the blame.

As for the DC thing, DC had the car on full opposite lock but the car still went into the wall, nothing to do with reactions.

[Ciro Pabón]

If you watch the accident in slow motion, you'll notice there is a bump on the track. I believe it's the same bump that throw Coulthard out of the track.

Sutil had a moment with that bump and was half able to control the car, Kimi did not. It's not their fault, it's the fault of the track and its maintenance engineers.

Frankly, Monaco, as a race track, svcks.

This race is like a sack race, everybody falling on their noses. I lost the count of incidents after the 12th contact.

I don't find this kind of thing entertaining, but, hey, there shouldn't be arguments between people with different tastes ("entre gustos no hay disgustos").

[donskar]

Frankly, Monaco, as a race track, svcks.

Could not agree more, and applaud your courage in saying it. It is a circus, and a track that sometimes results in races that are a travesty. Spa under fire, Silverstone might disappear, and this event is sacrosanct?

If F1 MUST have an event for the "beautiful people," then have a Kart race inside one of the Casinos.

Yes, Monaco does involve great driving skill, but there are too many places where a driver can be knocked out purely by bad luck. Cooling my rant, perhaps we should ask whether F1 performance has simply outgrown the course's physical parameters.

Finally, it brings out the worst in drivers (blocking, M Schu's qualifying shame) and spectators (interest in accidents and danger).

[WhiteBlue]

... the bickering about this small issue is ridiculous. Especially from you white_blue, every single post I've read from you suggests you know 100% and have no doubts. Too much confidence/cockyness can be awful u know?

... if I have failed to meet expectations in humbleness or have been too assertive about my views I apologise most defferentially to whoever harbours hurt feelings.

... since when does a driver forget, esp since engineers are always saying, warm this and that up.

btw signature is like a disclaimer, your posts are not expressed as opinions but as fact [-X ....

bidzarfar, I answer your post because I'm a bit sensitive to being painted in dark colors publicly. if you are concerned and want to give me advise please use a PM instead of making public criticism!

this is not a scientific seminar but an internet forum designed to express opinion and share views and experiences. it isn't required to point out that we deal with opinions here all the time. it is implicit.

the nature of the object almost excludes that we talk facts here. all we have is a bit of video from few a perspectives. we have no testimony and real physical data like vectors, distances, speeds, aqcceleration and the likes from an accident recorder. also nobody to my knowledge claimned to be an expert. we are all just fans who like to chat about the sport.

I fail to understand why you attack me as cocky and over confident? isn't it far more unpleseant to make detrimental personal remarks, accuse someone, roll your eyes, raise a finger on him and fail to accept an apology for me not expressing myself to your satisfaction?

Think about it! As Ciro would say: attack the post and not the poster!

I look forward to your contributions of facts and opinons in an equal way and hope that we will not sink into a public personal appreciation dispute. such matters are much better communicated by personal message.

[Carlos]

Here's a blurry video courtesy of F1 Fanatic and YouTube

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/05/25/v ... ts-finish/
EDIT
Actually 2 different perspectives on the video and just indistinct and blurred enough that we can argue about it until the next race.

In my view Sutil oversteered at the crest of the corner and got things totally under control. Good job.

Kimi is going a lot quicker and gets a couple of handfuls of oversteer and after 4 corrections has probably regained control,a whole lotta good technique that resulted in a big bowl full of not good enough. Result? Kimi is betrayed by time and distance and runs into Sutil. A racing accident.