European GP 2010 - Valencia

[Mr Alcatraz]

The fact is, Hamilton's questionable movement alongside the safety car was a far smaller factor in the race's result than the essentially random changes of position which happened - perfectly legitimately - behind the safety car, and placed Kobayashi, Button and several others infront of the Ferraris: it was those cars, and not Hamilton's (as Fernando stated), which ruined his race. Alonso's choice to single out Hamilton says more about his own psychology, and his perception of his main championship rivals, than it does about the race itself: in Alonso's mind, the drivers who legitimately leapfrogged him under the safety car don't matter because, unlike Lewis, he doesn't consider them part of the championship battle.

I wasn't thinking of this situation before, that you explain very good. Yes, I totally agree with you, if I remember now how the race happened for Alonso, it's a very bad argument that Hamilton ruined his race. He simply forget the other cars that didn't do the same as Hamilton, but anyway they're finished the race higher than Alonso. THIS Alonso reminds me of the times when Schumacher was in the bad Ferrari in the beginning, or even worse than that. Schumacher only get frustrated during the race, and made silly moves on others, and when he was really challenged for the lead, he brakes down ( long list of these > vs. Hill,Villeneuve,Montoya,Alonso )...
Just remember how Hamilton was behaving last year when McLaren was nowhere. He dealed with the situation much wisely, and accepted that his season has gone. It's exactly this situation where true behaviour of a race driver is showing. When the car is not performing, you have no luck, and you have to admit your mistakes. This is what's frustrating Alonso so much, that he can't think at normal, cooled down way. Alonso is better than Schumacher in a way that he can whitstand the pressure if he's leading, but he cannot accept his/teams errors if the car is not performing well. If he feels that the car is good for the win (like in Canada ) than he feels OK, and doesn't complain even if he's overtaken by others, but just see the last race...

This is not consistent with Alonso's performance last year, and the year before. In a dog of a Renault!
he constantly charged from midfield, and had some pretty amazing finishes in that POS
I think the real source of frustration is something Ferrari doesn’t want to elaborate on. 7 laps into the race Fred, and "The Bulk” were running nose to tail Massa being the one behind. Under normal racing situations and without carrying full fuel loads you would think Massa was being held up. I think this was a very well planned strategy I always follow live timing. Alonso and Massa were hanging about 2 sec.s behind "The Boss" Ferrari were using team orders then slowly started to reel The Boss in. The orders in mho were Alonso dictates the pace, and Massa sticks with him. The safety car came out and really blew that strategy to hell. We will never know, and it's mute anyway. I just think Ferrari were prepared very well in race trim. Then having to fight through the field wasted their tyres, an asset they may have had over the field! JMHO

[komninosm]

Blablabla

Very good and accurate assessment.

You must be joking, right?
Here's a clip for you if you're not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JelGcEyS ... ure=digest

[komninosm]

2) Charlie keeps the pit-line closed the when the first 4 cars passed(statement by commenting that Massa could not enter the pi-lane because it was closed).

Putting aside your poor English (and incoherent rants), I'm pretty sure the pits were always open, but Alonso and Massa (and Hamilton and Vettel) simply were past the pit entry when the accident happened and SC was declared. [-X :^o

[dougskullery]

Another small point regarding the "Hamilton intentionally shafted Alonso" conspiracy theory: if, as the conspiracy theorists imply, Hamilton was in full control of the situation to the point of being able to punish Alonso without suffering himself, would he really have messed up on something as simple as passing the second safety car line in front of the safety car?

Honestly, the idea that Hamilton intentionally screwed over Alonso is completely at odds with the awkward manner in which he incurred his penalty. Also, unlike Alonso, who clearly singles out Hamilton as a championship rival, there's no reason to believe Hamilton sees Alonso any differently to the other drivers in contention. If I had to guess which driver Hamilton was focusing on at that point in the race, it'd be Vettel, not Fernando.

[komninosm]

Michael Schmidt at AMuS has contributed more information about the 5s penalties for the nine drivers:

Warum wurden so viele Piloten bestraft? War die Strafe gerecht?

Wenn das Safety-Car auf die Strecke geht, setzt die Rennleitung eine komplizierte Technik-Choreographie in Gang. Auf den Lenkrad-Displays der Piloten erscheint ohne Vorwarnung eine Countdown-Zeit, die sie auf dem Weg zur ersten Safety-Car-Linie kurz vor der Boxeneinfahrt nicht unterbieten dürfen. Diese Zeit ist zirka 20 Prozent langsamer als das normale Renntempo. Doch gleich neun Formel 1-Piloten hielten sich nicht an die Vorgabe.

Das Problem lag darin, dass das Feld in dieser frühen Phase noch nahe zusammen lag. In engen Kämpfen verwickelt hatten viele Piloten die Zeitvorgabe einfach zu spät bemerkt. "Ich kam gerade aus der letzten Haarnadel. Danach kommen nur schnelle Ecken nach links und rechts. Da bleibt keine Zeit, auf das Display zu schauen", entschuldigt sich Adrian Sutil. Die beste Ausrede hatten Jenson Button und Robert Kubica. "Sie waren nur 100 Meter vor der Safety-Car-Linie und konnten die Zeit gar nicht einhalten, ohne eine Vollbremsung hinzulegen", gestand auch die Rennleitung später.

Am Ende wurden alle Piloten mit einem Zeitmalus von fünf Sekunden belegt. "Die meisten Fahrer haben zwischen zwei und drei Sekunden gewonnen", erklärt Sauber-Teammanager Beat Zehnder. "Ich denke, die Strafe geht in Ordnung."


Why were so many drivers penalized and was the penalty fair?

When the safety car enters the track race control starts a complicated technical clockwork. Without prior warning a timer starts to run down on the dash display of the drivers giving a time that they must not beat to the first safety car line. The line is located shortly before the pit entry. This time is approximately 20% longer than the time under normal race pace. In Valencia nine drivers did not obey that time.

The field was very close in this early part of the race. Many drivers were involved in close fights and realized the target time much too late. "I exited the last hairpin and into the final fast left and right hand corners. There is no time to look at the display." Adrian Sutil excused the transgression. The best excuse came from Jenson Button and Robert Kubica. "They were just 100 meters from the safety car line and were unable to make the target time unless they stepped on the brake with full power." acknowledged race control later.

In the end all drivers were handed a 5s penalty. "Most drivers gained between two and three seconds" explained Sauber team manager Beat Zehnder. "I think the penalty is appropriate."

This ludicrous business with the delta times highlights precisely why the safety car rule is useless. If a driver gets a target time at the begin of a lap he can mentally translate that into a speed that he has to try to hit. But if you hit him with a target time out of the blue somewhere on track in the middle of an attack or a defense he will have little chance to work out how he must pace himself and also make the adjustment that this time does not relate to crossing the finish line but the safety car line #1. If he is on the final approach to the safety car line he cannot be expected to observe the rule at all.

The mass violation of the delta time rule is ample proof - if it was ever needed - that the egg heads in the TWG are too much in love with the gimmicks at their disposal. The delta time rule ought to be abolished immediately before it creates more controversy. If the drivers had a speedometer in the car you can give them a target speed and expect them to observe it after a certain warning time. They do not have this luxury and frankly speaking it is completely unnecessary if sensible safety car rules were made.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10969.html
Q: Both drivers ended the race under investigation by the stewards for exceeding the permitted speed on their in-laps under safety car conditions. Can you explain why they received five-second penalties and the team's response?
AP: When the safety car came out, it was just before Robert's braking point for the final corner, which is just before the Safety car line. His reaction time from the safety car lights coming on to braking was about 1.2 seconds and he then entered the pit lane. It's difficult to see how he could have avoided this penalty because he couldn't have braked any sooner and he reacted as quickly as he could. Unfortunately, Vitaly came in too quickly and we accept the penalty for him, but it's hard to understand Robert's penalty.

[WhiteBlue]

.. if, as the conspiracy theorists imply, Hamilton was in full control of the situation to the point of being able to punish Alonso without suffering himself, would he really have messed up on something as simple as passing the second safety car line in front of the safety car?

I see no problem there. The natural thing to do was pushing all the way to SCL#2. Hamilton for some reason did not do that. He complicated his pass on the safety car by slowing down. In fact he waited too long to pick up the pace to escape a penalty. One has to ask oneself why Hamilton was distracted from his primary task of passing the safety car. If he tried to screw it up for Alonso it is the perfect explanation why he did not focus enough on his main task in that situation.

It is a logical explanation but there could be several other explanations for what Hamilton did. Unless something was mentioned over team radio we will probably never know and the result will stand anyway. Ferrari have no legal means to challenge Hamilton's driving beyond the illegal pass on the safety car and that is already punished. So other than curiosity we will not satisfy anything by analysing the incident.

[myurr]

I see no problem there. The natural thing to do was pushing all the way to SCL#2. Hamilton for some reason did not do that. He complicated his pass on the safety car by slowing down. In fact he waited too long to pick up the pace to escape a penalty. One has to ask oneself why Hamilton was distracted from his primary task of passing the safety car. If he tried to screw it up for Alonso it is the perfect explanation why he did not focus enough on his main task in that situation.

It is a logical explanation but there could be several other explanations for what Hamilton did. Unless something was mentioned over team radio we will probably never know and the result will stand anyway. Ferrari have no legal means to challenge Hamilton's driving beyond the illegal pass on the safety car and that is already punished. So other than curiosity we will not satisfy anything by analysing the incident.

Surely it's the case that the simplest and most likely explanation was that he was unsure of the rules, stopped to think, realised he could pass, and then went for it but was slightly too late. The fact that the safety car actually crosses the pit lane exit line in error could also explain the hesitation. It was also highly unlikely that Alonso would ever have made it past the safety car before the appropriate line.

The biggest defence against Hamilton doing this deliberately is that even Alonso who was 1) the closest spectator, 2) the driver allegedly held up, 3) Hamilton's biggest critic, 4) the guy currently hurling accusations around the place; even he does not accuse Hamilton of deliberately holding him up. This is something the fanboys have decided to bring up to try and bolster the whole 'Hamilton is truly evil and should have been black flagged, dragged from his car and shot' argument.

[gridwalker]

14) What would have been passed if Webber's car was in the middle of the track."

Hrmmm ... Webber, in the middle of a track after a huge accident ... what could possibly happen ... Let me think ...

http://www.streetfire.net/video/f1-2003 ... 727585.htm

After Interlagos '03, Alonso is lucky to be alive.

So ... it has been established that Alonso isn't exactly a saint when it comes to safety car etiquette; maybe he should stop throwing his toys out of the pram.

[kalinka]

komninosm is right. Schumacher is the chapion of loopholes Just remember when he wins by crossing the finish line in the box, during his drive-trough penalty I thin it was Silverstone 1997 or 1998 against Hakkinen.

Nobody discussed the next theoretical situation : What if Vettel and the race leaders stays out, didn't changing their tyres, and also Hamilton didn't overtake SC and staying behind SC ? Then Vettel would have lapped the whole field didn't he? Rejoining after at the back. And if you got lapped cars behind safety car and the leading car, it is allowed for lapped cars to overtake the SC and go around so the leader can take his position. Then, in this situation the whole field would have been allowed to overtake the SC and again, Hamilton would be second behind vettel

Tell me that I'm wrong here, maybe I missed something in my theory ?

Oh...just one little thing...how on earth Hamilton could tell how much penalty he gets? It was a very good chance that he gets stop&go or 10sec, and in that situation he's race would be ruined. At the time he's overtaking the SC, he could not tell if it would be a gain or loss for him. I can assume that it was a much higher probability of loosing big time because of the penalty. He simply cannot think he would get out gaining anything on others. He's was lucky, and I'm sure he was very much frustrated when the team told him that he's got penalised, and he was thinking "my race is over".

edited , too much spelling errors

[gridwalker]

Are the only publicly available pictures of webber's crash the ones taken from the TV footage? I am looking for something with more of a side view, but can't find anything (and don't have the time for a really thorough search whilst I'm at work) ...

[Pedro]

Pit-stop summary:


Stints and tyres:

Green = option (super-soft); black = primary (medium)

Source: F1news.cz
http://f1news.cz/novinky/35093-zastavky ... rychlejsi/

[toshinden]

komninosm is right. Schumacher is the chapion of loopholes Just remember when he wins by crossing the finish line in the box, during his drive-trough penalty I thin it was Silverstone 1997 or 1998 against Hakkinen.(

was the decision about taking penalty in the last lap decide by his team? why should MS to be the one that pointed for that decision?

anyway for the race, still can't find anything that make street circuit interesting

[kalinka]

komninosm is right. Schumacher is the chapion of loopholes Just remember when he wins by crossing the finish line in the box, during his drive-trough penalty I thin it was Silverstone 1997 or 1998 against Hakkinen.(

was the decision about taking penalty in the last lap decide by his team? why should MS to be the one that pointed for that decision?

anyway for the race, still can't find anything that make street circuit interesting

I was intending to be a little ironic, since a lot of people blame Hamilton for things that even his team has no influence on. Like how much penalty the stewards gave him. Even so, I think Schumacher has a long history of other things beside that that prooves me to call him champion of loopholes anyway

I think street racing is indeed interesting. I used to watch Indycar some 10 years ago, and the street races were the most exciting ones . Lots of pistops, lots of overtakes, lots of SC periods, sliding cars, brushing walls... I think the F1 car's design makes these races a little boring, not the circuits themselves.

[sAx]

Hamilton is a liar because he said that he didn't remeber anything. In the video we can see how first Ham slows his speed whe he saw tha safety car. This is made to be sure that Alonso is not going to pass the safety car. Then Hamilton accelerate and pass the safety. Hamilton would be given a black flag. The punishment he received is ridiculous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZfUwGvUOaE

The extent to which the mclaren-manufactured humanoid is prepared to go to win an F1 race knows no limit. For those with an eagle on the detail will not have failed to note that the conspiracy started before the race, as the drivers proceeded through the pit complex to the dummy grid.

The humanoid was seen in deep conversation with Heiki, who he asked to slam his brakes on, on Lap 9 as Webber would be approaching 5s/lap quicker following a poor start. Heiki keen to follow in the footsteps of his compatriot Kimi (himself none to partial to a drop or few!), agreed because the Humanoid promised to share the bubbly for the 2nd place he predicted!

After softening up Heiki,, he called Charlie to agree on the SC procedure, which he assured Race Control would spice up the race. Charlie agreed as long as the Humanoid crossed the 2nd white line before the SC, he would be Ok with it. As the Humanoid approached the white line during the race he made sure he backed up the rest of the grid, but in his desire to pull a fast one on Alonso he suddenly realised that he had mis-calculated the SC 2nd line by some 2m!

The Humanoid knew at this point that Charlie would be incredibly upset, as he had lied to him previously about the outcome of overtaking safety cars (Melbourne 2009!). Knowing that Charlie would be giving him a stop and go, he arranged for Kobayashi to FDuct (nee stall!) the rest to the field so that the penalty would have no effect on his final placement. This epic is of lunar conspiracy proportions and therefore should have received a ban equivalent to a precambrian geological time-frame.

If we are to believe any less, then we must all be part of a lunatic conspiracy!

sAx

[ElTron]

You must be joking, right?
Here's a clip for you if you're not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JelGcEyS ... ure=digest

I have a better clip for you. What loophole rule was Hamilton trying to find?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK6KYnS7EsU