did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

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autogyro
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by autogyro » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:06 pm

As I said it is a nice project and with modern electronics more acceptable and faster shifts can be achieved.
Did you try anything other than sequential shifting?
The thing is that any shift system on a layshaft gearbox is limited in shift speed and torque transfer by the engagement components that can never be mechanically over lapped from one ratio to another.
With twin clutch/shaft gearboxes you can come very close but with way to much mass, component friction and oil windage.
If you use a planetary geartrain with clutches full over lap with no break in torque transfer can be achieved.
With the right planetary layout and dry sumping, mass, component friction and oil windage can be taken to the barest minimum.

andylaurence
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by andylaurence » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:16 am

I don't think Hewland sell those...

autogyro
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by autogyro » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:48 am

Thats right Andy there were only two prototypes made.
I spoke at length with William Hewland and others at the factory about these units and the potential of electro magnetic shifting for ic hybrid and electric vehicles.
Such systems will be fully developed but not until the hold conventional lay shaft technology has on the industry is broken and big enough budgets can be found for development.
I come from an era when we undertook such development in motor sport as a matter of course.
Today as you state, it is mostly buying components off the shelf with little innovation apart from small operations like this particular project which is very interesting.
It deserves support.

Just_a_fan
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:50 am

If you use a planetary geartrain with clutches full over lap with no break in torque transfer can be achieved.
Isn't that basically what an automatic gearbox is just with a torque converter added at the input end?
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autogyro
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by autogyro » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:09 am

Basically yes and many modern automatic gear boxes have more refined electronic selection to mimic sports modes etc.
However they are compromised for road use and the fitting of a torque converter or fluid link always results in a torque loss and extra mass.
A purpose designed gear train using planetary sets for racing, results in the most efficient way to transfer torque using stepped ratios and gives the potential for faster power on shifting.

Today the best solution is to use a planetary gear train with electro magnetic shifting with a combined energy recovery apply system, however this is getting off the subject of the thread which is an important cost saving direction for many people.

If this shift system can be perfected and sold at a decent price point it will be a big benefit to the budget end of racing.

andylaurence
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by andylaurence » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:17 pm

Seriously though, if it was that simple and you spoke to Hewland decades ago, do you not think one would have appeared on the market by now? One of the mainstream road car manufacturers would have done it by now, rather than develop these ludicrously complex dual clutch transmissions.

autogyro
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by autogyro » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:21 am

andylaurence wrote:Seriously though, if it was that simple and you spoke to Hewland decades ago, do you not think one would have appeared on the market by now? One of the mainstream road car manufacturers would have done it by now, rather than develop these ludicrously complex dual clutch transmissions.
No I do not expect the main manufacturers to do anything other than follow the status quo for which they are geared up with billion dollar/ euro investment rather that spend millions on developing road versions of a different gearbox concept.
It is the same reason you do not see efficient sports motorbikes with push button gear shift and the huge performance gains that would go with a complete ergonomic change to the controls. There is no need for foot gear levers and front and rear brakes would work better on left and right feet. The right wrist would only have a throttle then and far better bike control would be achieved.
All the tech is available for this so why isnt it done?
Because bikers expect a crude foot operated gear shift or they dont feel like bikers thats why.
Racing bikes mirror this because their main purpose is selling product.
I have also talked at length with two top bike teams who wanted to follow my ideas but both were stopped by their manufacturers.

The ludicrous twin clurch gearboxes are a marketing ploy in a similar way.
Buyers of cars with these units are led to believe the car is based on F1 or at least high end motor sport technology when it no way compares technically.
Because the shift paddle mechanism appears the same as F1 (although today the paddles do a different job in F1) why would car makers move away from the accepted lay shaft gear train.
Just make it twin clutch to improve shift speed without the added wear of the F1 trick shift mechanisms and you appease the less than technically minded buying public without huge development costs.
Ita a doddle.
Of course it matters little if you use paddle shifters or buttons and the gear box being operated can be almost any type.

Gatecrasher
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by Gatecrasher » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:31 am

autogyro wrote:It is the same reason you do not see efficient sports motorbikes with push button gear shift and the huge performance gains that would go with a complete ergonomic change to the controls. There is no need for foot gear levers and front and rear brakes would work better on left and right feet. The right wrist would only have a throttle then and far better bike control would be achieved.
The new Honda African Twin (Adventure Bike) will have the option of a DCT or six speed manual, not yet into sportbike territory but I am sure the manufacturers will come out with one soon. Most of the manual gearbox top end liter bikes will have quickshifters and auto blippers in the next couple of years.

Note for non bikers: Throttle hand stays wide open throttle, the bike changes up gears when you apply pressure to the gearshifter. There is a pressure switch on the lever that tells the ECU to kill power (~20ms, you can adjust this with a PC) and the gears slot in, no clutch required. On down shift the opposite happens when the throttles open (blip) so you change down again without the clutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dtk8oCba_Y

When we did not have quickshifters you just kept some pressure on the gear shift and then momentarily cut the throttle to change gears. The quickshifter is faster and makes the bike more stable during the shifting process, especially when leaned over while on the throttle.

Autogyro why would this not work on small cars instead of a clutch based flappy paddle gearbox

andylaurence
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by andylaurence » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:38 pm

autogyro wrote:No I do not expect the main manufacturers to do anything other than follow the status quo for which they are geared up with billion dollar/ euro investment rather that spend millions on developing road versions of a different gearbox concept.
Did VW and their DSG surprise you then? How about the various CVT units or Mercedes with their automatic clutch and manual gearbox? How about the automated manuals from various manufacturers? Your statement doesn't correlate with the evidence of the last 20 years or even my own car history.
autogyro wrote:It is the same reason you do not see efficient sports motorbikes with push button gear shift and the huge performance gains that would go with a complete ergonomic change to the controls. There is no need for foot gear levers and front and rear brakes would work better on left and right feet. The right wrist would only have a throttle then and far better bike control would be achieved.
All the tech is available for this so why isnt it done?
A colleague has a push button gearbox on his motorbike. I don't know how common it is, but they exist. How about all those CVT bikes at the lower end of the market?
autogyro wrote:Buyers of cars with these units are led to believe the car is based on F1 or at least high end motor sport technology when it no way compares technically.
Because the shift paddle mechanism appears the same as F1 (although today the paddles do a different job in F1) why would car makers move away from the accepted lay shaft gear train.

....

Of course it matters little if you use paddle shifters or buttons and the gear box being operated can be almost any type.
Quite clearly, if the paddles on the wheel are the thing they're aiming for, then what's underneath doesn't matter. It simply needs to be the best thing the manufacturer can develop. Your solution doesn't feature. That means that either someone holds a patent and refuses to let the car makers build this gearbox or it just isn't the best solution out there. Maybe it's expensive or unreliable or not as efficient as you think or maybe it's just lacking refinement. One thing's for sure - nobody has decided to build one, even in limited production.

autogyro
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by autogyro » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:03 pm

Non of the gearboxes you mention surprise me, The DSG is a twin clutch lay shaft gearbox, CVT gearboxes are inefficient for torque transfer in higher power vehicles because of the high energy needed to operate their ratio mechanisms and the auto clutch manuals at Mercedes are an attempt to mimic F1 and make it usable for road use. Automated manuals still use the 19th century lay shaft gear train concept.

Macho high performance motorbikes still use foot gear shifting,
The Honda Africa is simply following current performance car trends and using the gear boxes already mentioned for a bike.
Double clutch/shaft lay shaft.
The technology for blipping throttles and gear shift pressure buttons have been available for over 50 years it is only modern electronics that has made them work better, the gear train mechanics remains much as it was in the 1890s.

As you are aware I had explained my gear box ideas to a number of vehicle manufacturers and racing teams.
I have never received any negative response to them.
Of course there will be engineers who consider it not worthwhile to develop my ideas further, you will have to ask them for their reasons, I certainly dont know them.
I simply decided to stop spending my own money and time attempting to gain budgets.
I have many other things in my life and now consider myself happily retired.

I hope that covers your points, now perhaps we can return to the project of the thread which IMO is very important to those following a performance ideal independent of the strangle hold that the main manufacturers now have and also cost effective for the private experimenter.

J.A.W.
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by J.A.W. » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:06 am

autogyro wrote: ...Sequential is based on the 'hairy' biker using his big booted foot to jam a gearshift.
Not much 'feel' doing that is there...
A-G, somehow I think the slick-shifting maestros - such as World Champ Hugh Anderson - who so skillfully wielded the radical powerbands of `60's two-stroke tiddler GP bikes via super-accurately timed dance-stepping on the shifter of the dozen or more ratios necessary to keep such potent, but fickle machines 'on the boil' - would take justified umbrage at your "...hairy biker..jam a gearshift.." slur.
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

autogyro
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by autogyro » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:29 pm

J.A.W. wrote:
autogyro wrote: ...Sequential is based on the 'hairy' biker using his big booted foot to jam a gearshift.
Not much 'feel' doing that is there...
A-G, somehow I think the slick-shifting maestros - such as World Champ Hugh Anderson - who so skillfully wielded the radical powerbands of `60's two-stroke tiddler GP bikes via super-accurately timed dance-stepping on the shifter of the dozen or more ratios necessary to keep such potent, but fickle machines 'on the boil' - would take justified umbrage at your "...hairy biker..jam a gearshift.." slur.
I doubt it.
He knows I have the greatest respect for his abilities having consulted with Honda on the gearboxes of their smaller machines.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:29 pm

cmcraeslo wrote:Hey.

I've been building the H pattern gearbox paddle shifter for the last 2 years. I got paddle shifting without the (expensive) gearbox. It's basically a pneumatic multiposition cylinders controlled by sophisticated hardware and software.

You can see it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPRZ0MhzCuc
Please explain what is happening with the clutch. I'm lost at that part. :shock:

Edit: My, my! You are using Megasquirt to do all of this?!!
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cmcraeslo
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by cmcraeslo » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:51 am

Hey. Megasquirt is there only for engine control. To control the shifting i have a custom build control unit to handle all the strategies (there are actually quite a few).

Here on the video I have a dogbox which allows me to shift without a clutch (on upshift i unload the engine using megasquirt) and on downshift there's a throttle blip cylinder which blips the throttle for a moment just so it can easily downshift.

However, i've designed the system do it can shift sychro gearboxes too. I have two speed setup so i can control the clutch automatically. When you shift up clutch release is fast and when you downshift, clutch releases slowly so you have a nice, smooth shift.

strad
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Re: did anyone try to build H pattern to sequential kit?

Post by strad » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:54 pm

try these people
made for Corvettes and Fords that run a T56
http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?categoryid=31
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