My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post here information about your own engineering projects, including but not limited to building your own car or designing a virtual car through CAD.
LegendaryM
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by LegendaryM » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:57 pm

ringo wrote:still in breach. :wink:

1 standard section in the middle 250mm. This is another section.
nope, check again

ringo
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by ringo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:21 am

3.7.2 Any horizontal section taken through bodywork located forward of a point lying 450mm forward of the front
wheel centre line, less than 250mm from the car centre line, and between 125mm and 200mm above the
reference plane, may only contain two closed symmetrical sections with a maximum total area of
5000mm2
The thickness of each section may not exceed 25mm when measured perpendicular to the car .
centre line.
this is for the wing supports. But if a horizontal section for the 250mm area is taken your flex wing part will be included in it, making it 4 sections instead of 2.
But i assume you place the wing part outside of the 250mm to dodge this ruling.

Then this one is to be applied:
3.7.4 In the area bounded by lines between 450mm and 1000mm ahead of the front wheel centre line, 250mm
and 400mm from the car centre line and between 75mm and 275mm above the reference plane, the
projected area of all bodywork onto the longitudinal centre plane of the car must be no more than
20,000mm2
I guess that's up to you to balance the cross sectional areas of your wing profiles, and try to get enough area between the 2 to provid enough aerodynamic influence and strenght.
So maybe you got around the rules. However here's the downside; that blue part most definitely will be weaker than the red section of wing due to it's crossectional area and the fact that it's a cantilever. :mrgreen:

If 100kg is placed on it, it more than likely will touch on the red.

But not only that, there is a very big adapter that you must provide to pass this test.
The load will be applied in a downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram to the centre of area of an adapter measuring 300mm x 150mm, the 300mm length having been positioned parallel to the car centre line. Teams must supply the adapter when such a test is deemed necessary
This adapter will more than likely have to supported rigidly by both red and blue parts of the wing. Increasing the flat area of the blue part may help.

then there's this test:
3.17.2 Bodywork may deflect no more than 10mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 450mm
forward of the rear wheel centre line and 650mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a
downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter of the same size. Teams must supply the
latter when such a test is deemed necessary
this can be applied anywhere 450mm forward of the rear wheels, such as the wing.

So that's it i guess if you pass those, then you got a good loop hole to the flexi wing. But If I were carrying out the tests, i would find it necessary to test the red parts.
3.17.8 In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to
introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of),
moving whilst the car is in motion.
For Sure!!

machin
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by machin » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:09 am

Ringo wrote:...that blue part most definitely will be weaker than the red section of wing due to it's crossectional area and the fact that it's a cantilever.
Both the red and the blue are effectively cantilever's... if they had the same construction then yes, the red looks like it would stiffer, but we don't know how Lengendary would intend on making these two sections do we? You can't take an F1 car at face value, you know that!

The red parts could be made from rubber for all we know (I'm exaggerating, of course!), meaning it would be extremely flexible compared to the blue section.

I agree that they'd probably change rule 3.17.8 once the wing appeared once, but maybe they'd get away with it for 1 race?!
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ringo
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by ringo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:53 pm

Yeah they could get away with it...If the tests are taken literally.

It's a pretty inventive solution, but the intent to deceive is somewhat obvious. The inspector/steward may find it necessary to invoke 3.17.8

or even 3.17.2 which is more broad based.
For Sure!!

Joie de vivre
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by Joie de vivre » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:47 pm

If I were a rich man, I'd hire some of the guys on this board. I bet I would at least beat virgin and hrt. :D

machin
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by machin » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:21 pm

ringo wrote:Yeah they could get away with it...If the tests are taken literally.
...which we know they are... at the moment... look at the Red Bull situation.
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Lindz
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by Lindz » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:40 pm

machin wrote:
ringo wrote:Yeah they could get away with it...If the tests are taken literally.
...which we know they are... at the moment... look at the Red Bull situation.
Don't even start. :roll:

Rake + stiff rear heave control + relatively soft front heave + allowable flex in wing + AoA + aero load + ground effect suction = SLIGHTLY more bending wing than McLaren.

It's not illegal, nor is it the reason the RB7 is a good car.


Back to this thread.... First person I would hire for my F1 team would be Ringo. He would definitely be key to catching any loopholes or overly-anxious attempts at them.

machin
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by machin » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:10 am

It's not illegal, nor is it the reason the RB7 is a good car.
I was talking about the RB6... it ran in its original flexy configuration for at least one race before the FIA changed the load tests.... hence why I think you might get away with it for one race..... the RB6 also wasn't illegal... it passed the tests which is why the tests then changed (although personally I don't see what's wrong with flexy bodywork, as long as it doesn't break).
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

Lindz
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by Lindz » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:22 am

Gotcha. It was the 'at the moment' thing that makes it sound like a current 2011 problem....

While it might get away with it for 1 race (I doubt it in this very obvious case), I think there are already 'almost known' ways that the wing can be built and/or made to flex. I know what the point is though, the real solution is not very 'visual' since it has to do with construction techniques and car setup. If you're creating your own F1 car from scratch and designing it in 3D, it's nice to see some exploration or innovation on the model as it is a visual indicator.

Great modeling skills though. What's the program? I use Solidworks (for mechanicals) and Alias Autostudio (for compound surfacing).

LegendaryM
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by LegendaryM » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:23 am

ringo wrote:
3.7.2 Any horizontal section taken through bodywork located forward of a point lying 450mm forward of the front
wheel centre line, less than 250mm from the car centre line, and between 125mm and 200mm above the
reference plane, may only contain two closed symmetrical sections with a maximum total area of
5000mm2
The thickness of each section may not exceed 25mm when measured perpendicular to the car .
centre line.
this is for the wing supports. But if a horizontal section for the 250mm area is taken your flex wing part will be included in it, making it 4 sections instead of 2.
But i assume you place the wing part outside of the 250mm to dodge this ruling.

Then this one is to be applied:
3.7.4 In the area bounded by lines between 450mm and 1000mm ahead of the front wheel centre line, 250mm
and 400mm from the car centre line and between 75mm and 275mm above the reference plane, the
projected area of all bodywork onto the longitudinal centre plane of the car must be no more than
20,000mm2
I guess that's up to you to balance the cross sectional areas of your wing profiles, and try to get enough area between the 2 to provid enough aerodynamic influence and strenght.
So maybe you got around the rules. However here's the downside; that blue part most definitely will be weaker than the red section of wing due to it's crossectional area and the fact that it's a cantilever. :mrgreen:

If 100kg is placed on it, it more than likely will touch on the red.

But not only that, there is a very big adapter that you must provide to pass this test.
The load will be applied in a downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram to the centre of area of an adapter measuring 300mm x 150mm, the 300mm length having been positioned parallel to the car centre line. Teams must supply the adapter when such a test is deemed necessary
This adapter will more than likely have to supported rigidly by both red and blue parts of the wing. Increasing the flat area of the blue part may help.

then there's this test:
3.17.2 Bodywork may deflect no more than 10mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 450mm
forward of the rear wheel centre line and 650mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a
downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter of the same size. Teams must supply the
latter when such a test is deemed necessary
this can be applied anywhere 450mm forward of the rear wheels, such as the wing.

So that's it i guess if you pass those, then you got a good loop hole to the flexi wing. But If I were carrying out the tests, i would find it necessary to test the red parts.
3.17.8 In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to
introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of),
moving whilst the car is in motion.
3.7.2: yes it meets that:
Image
It also is a big enough area to take the entire load test

3.7.4: thanks for pointing this out, the wing originally broke this rule so i had to make some changes
Image


im pretty sure 3.17.2 is to stop the floor deflecting, and i can only desing the car to what the regulations are now, not what they may hypothetically be changed to if i introduce an update

I can't really work on the car, and get on the internet easily this week because im on holiday

volarchico
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by volarchico » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:10 am

I can't really work on the car, and get on the internet easily this week because im on holiday
It's slightly ironic that you only have time to work on your car when you're NOT on holiday. :)

Awesome work and modeling, btw.

Tozza Mazza
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by Tozza Mazza » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:18 am

as i understand it, the overhang on the end of the blue section is exactly the maximum flex height above the red section, therefore meaning it passes the flex test ( as long as the red bit doesn't flex with the blue bit). Very clever =D>

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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by Tozza Mazza » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:22 pm

Hi legendaryM, I was inspired by your flexi wing, but thought that your concept was confusing. On my model thread (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9807&start=15) I have also got a flexible front wing, however mine works so that the top section, in your case the blue section is flexible. The downforce created on the end of the blue section would effectively mean that the system works like a lever. The endplates below it are exactly 20mm below it so that it passes the flexible test. I don't really grip you're concept, as i don't see how the red section would be flexible. An explanation would be fantastic.
Tom.

Jentel
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by Jentel » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:01 am

Hi,
i am fascinated of your great aerodynamic work!
Especially you Frontwings are very good!

I have also many aerodynamic ideas and drawings. And now i can copy some thinks ;)

But also i want to say some mistakes on your F1 car.

First one: Your underbody is on one level to the ground. But he must be higher to the rear to work like a diffusor.
http://www.speed-magazin.de/Image/Forme ... rcedes.jpg

Secound think: You Diffusor. In my opinion you Diffusor can not work effectively because you send air under your Diffusor. But its wrong, because there must be a hypotension (under pressure).
On this way the double diffusor works. (Because of my bad english ists hard to discribe.) He takes air from the ground on the top of the diffusor to greate a hypotension (under pressure). Its a very nice physical effekt.

If you want, i can send you some pictures of my F1 car.

But at least, i want to say that your work looks great !!!!

keep on
(SORRY for my english, but its not my motherlanguage)

LegendaryM
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Re: My F1 car - LegendaryM

Post by LegendaryM » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:56 pm

Tozza Mazza wrote:Hi legendaryM, I was inspired by your flexi wing, but thought that your concept was confusing. On my model thread (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9807&start=15) I have also got a flexible front wing, however mine works so that the top section, in your case the blue section is flexible. The downforce created on the end of the blue section would effectively mean that the system works like a lever. The endplates below it are exactly 20mm below it so that it passes the flexible test. I don't really grip you're concept, as i don't see how the red section would be flexible. An explanation would be fantastic.
Tom.
The blue bit is what undergoes the load test, so it is really stiff. The lower red part doesnt have to undergo a load test, so it can be made to flex easily.
Jentel wrote:Hi,
i am fascinated of your great aerodynamic work!
Especially you Frontwings are very good!

I have also many aerodynamic ideas and drawings. And now i can copy some thinks ;)

But also i want to say some mistakes on your F1 car.

First one: Your underbody is on one level to the ground. But he must be higher to the rear to work like a diffusor.
http://www.speed-magazin.de/Image/Forme ... rcedes.jpg

Secound think: You Diffusor. In my opinion you Diffusor can not work effectively because you send air under your Diffusor. But its wrong, because there must be a hypotension (under pressure).
On this way the double diffusor works. (Because of my bad english ists hard to discribe.) He takes air from the ground on the top of the diffusor to greate a hypotension (under pressure). Its a very nice physical effekt.

If you want, i can send you some pictures of my F1 car.

But at least, i want to say that your work looks great !!!!

keep on
(SORRY for my english, but its not my motherlanguage)
For the first one, i assume you mean adding rake to the car, which i admit i hadn't done before but i have now on the very large update im gonna post soon. On your second point, i disagree with you, a double diffuser works by increasing the exit area of the diffuser. It has holes in the floor not above it.
I'd love to see pictures of your f1 car