2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by SmallSoldier » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:16 pm

Ground Effect wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:12 pm
ivanlesk wrote: It means a lot for team. It's a good reword for hard work and motivation to go further. As a big fan you say you are, you should probably care a little bit more.
Why though? He has a very valid point... It is nice for the team, nice for Sainz... But the team hasn’t joined the Top 3 in terms of performance... As a matter of fact, they haven’t clearly lead the midfield in terms of performance (they are clearly 4th best “all around” team... But they are not comfortably getting P7-P8 in Qualifying and the race).

As a fan, I will support the team in the good times and the bad times, but that doesn’t mean that I’m happy with their performance... The challenge is to get on the podium based on pace or on it’s own merit, that would be fantastic... Getting there thanks to several external factors (and in Brazil there were a lot of them) isn’t something to be overly excited about (to put things in perspective, they were beaten by a Toro Rosso).


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I think we should all remember that the name, McLaren is worth zero tenths in performance. Where they are today is down to a lot of hard work by several men and women, some of whom never experienced the success of the McLaren of old, so this is a big moment for them. We all want them to return to the glory days, competing for wins and podiums on their merit. But before they get back there, it’ll take hard work, but it’s also taken hard work to get where they are now. Carlos started 20th, behind everyone. He ended up beating both Racing Points, both Renaults, both Alfa’s, both Haas cars and one STR. If in 4 years of Alonso they didn’t get a single podium, then this ought to be celebrated. Remember Lotus, Brabham, Tyrrell....
I don’t think anyone is bashing the team or not recognizing their improvement this season... P4 in the Championship is the reward to all that hard work and a great achievement in itself.

The fact that they took advantage of a the retirements and that Carlos drove a great race it’s also really good in itself... But, denying that it was a result derived from a lot of luck and not based on performance isn’t the right thing either.

Just creating a bit of perspective... The team was already lapped by the front runners before the first Safety Car... Yes, they finished ahead of both Renault’s and the Alfa’s (Haas race pace isn’t stellar so not something to brag about)... The team is still lacking performance (they didn’t made it to Q3 in Qualy).

Let’s celebrate a great season, be happy that we were given a 3rd position by the actions/luck of other teams... But, let’s not be naive and say that it was “earned” or “deserved” since it wasn’t on their own merit.


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Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Manoah2u » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm

It's painful to realize that if Mclaren had worked better no their relationship with Honda,
and not blindly follow their own failing 'size zero' packaging, they could have been very much where RedBull is now.
I know that's sounding sore and still living off the failed relation between Mclaren and Honda,
but it is a fact that stands.
You can see how much both RedBull and Honda achieved in just 2 seasons, if you'd concider Toro Rosso's year with Honda.
Yes, Honda has learned from their stint with Mclaren, but just as much you can see how capable they are to build a powerfull engine
when they're not having their hands tied behind their back from unrealistic demands from their 'customer', who got the engines for free.
It makes you wonder what might have happened if Mclaren approached and dealt with Honda the same way RedBull did, especially with
Alonso behind the wheel.

But, it did not go that way, and offcourse part of the problem were the people in charge back then, and it's really not the same Mclaren anymore.
It's good to see Mclaren back at the front of the midfield creeping towards the front. Things could have gone Williams' way quite easily.

That said, i'm curious for the Mercedes reunion in the future, aswell as their future driver line up. I like Sainz and Norris, but to be honest,
they're not the calibre of drivers Mclaren needs to be successfull. They're good for now, but no more than that.
Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, LeClerc, are what the team needs in less then 3 years time to be back 'where they belong'.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Big Tea » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:56 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm
It's painful to realize that if Mclaren had worked better no their relationship with Honda,
and not blindly follow their own failing 'size zero' packaging, they could have been very much where RedBull is now.
I know that's sounding sore and still living off the failed relation between Mclaren and Honda,
but it is a fact that stands.
You can see how much both RedBull and Honda achieved in just 2 seasons, if you'd concider Toro Rosso's year with Honda.
Yes, Honda has learned from their stint with Mclaren, but just as much you can see how capable they are to build a powerfull engine
when they're not having their hands tied behind their back from unrealistic demands from their 'customer', who got the engines for free.
It makes you wonder what might have happened if Mclaren approached and dealt with Honda the same way RedBull did, especially with
Alonso behind the wheel.

But, it did not go that way, and offcourse part of the problem were the people in charge back then, and it's really not the same Mclaren anymore.
It's good to see Mclaren back at the front of the midfield creeping towards the front. Things could have gone Williams' way quite easily.

That said, i'm curious for the Mercedes reunion in the future, aswell as their future driver line up. I like Sainz and Norris, but to be honest,
they're not the calibre of drivers Mclaren needs to be successfull. They're good for now, but no more than that.
Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, LeClerc, are what the team needs in less then 3 years time to be back 'where they belong'.
It took the jolt and 'line in the sand' to be a new start for Mclaren. Had things just rolled on as the were I feel the progress would not have been made. Its like a player going to a new team. All things can be changed if needed or keep what you liked, but reputation does not cut it, it has to be todays performance.

I was very anti split with Honda, but it was the best thing. Nothing to say they cannot get back together down the line.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

kfrantzios
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by kfrantzios » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:04 pm

Manoah2u wrote:It's painful to realize that if Mclaren had worked better no their relationship with Honda,
and not blindly follow their own failing 'size zero' packaging, they could have been very much where RedBull is now.
I know that's sounding sore and still living off the failed relation between Mclaren and Honda,
but it is a fact that stands.
You can see how much both RedBull and Honda achieved in just 2 seasons, if you'd concider Toro Rosso's year with Honda.
Yes, Honda has learned from their stint with Mclaren, but just as much you can see how capable they are to build a powerfull engine
when they're not having their hands tied behind their back from unrealistic demands from their 'customer', who got the engines for free.
It makes you wonder what might have happened if Mclaren approached and dealt with Honda the same way RedBull did, especially with
Alonso behind the wheel.

But, it did not go that way, and offcourse part of the problem were the people in charge back then, and it's really not the same Mclaren anymore.
It's good to see Mclaren back at the front of the midfield creeping towards the front. Things could have gone Williams' way quite easily.

That said, i'm curious for the Mercedes reunion in the future, aswell as their future driver line up. I like Sainz and Norris, but to be honest,
they're not the calibre of drivers Mclaren needs to be successfull. They're good for now, but no more than that.
Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, LeClerc, are what the team needs in less then 3 years time to be back 'where they belong'.
Cmon, I thought you knew better. By no means Mclaren would be where Red Bull is now. What makes you think that Mclaren could have matched RB chassis? What exactly has RB achieved with Honda that didn't achieve with Renault?

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SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by SmallSoldier » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm

Manoah2u wrote:It's painful to realize that if Mclaren had worked better no their relationship with Honda,
and not blindly follow their own failing 'size zero' packaging, they could have been very much where RedBull is now.
I know that's sounding sore and still living off the failed relation between Mclaren and Honda,
but it is a fact that stands.
You can see how much both RedBull and Honda achieved in just 2 seasons, if you'd concider Toro Rosso's year with Honda.
Yes, Honda has learned from their stint with Mclaren, but just as much you can see how capable they are to build a powerfull engine
when they're not having their hands tied behind their back from unrealistic demands from their 'customer', who got the engines for free.
It makes you wonder what might have happened if Mclaren approached and dealt with Honda the same way RedBull did, especially with
Alonso behind the wheel.

But, it did not go that way, and offcourse part of the problem were the people in charge back then, and it's really not the same Mclaren anymore.
It's good to see Mclaren back at the front of the midfield creeping towards the front. Things could have gone Williams' way quite easily.

That said, i'm curious for the Mercedes reunion in the future, aswell as their future driver line up. I like Sainz and Norris, but to be honest,
they're not the calibre of drivers Mclaren needs to be successfull. They're good for now, but no more than that.
Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, LeClerc, are what the team needs in less then 3 years time to be back 'where they belong'.
No need to keep discussing the “what ifs” of the Honda era, it wasn’t good for either brand and they are better of now (both of them) where they are respectively... A silly argument to engage with.

Where I will disagree strongly with you is on the drivers comment... Leclerc didn’t showed anything that the like of Norris has showed in their debut season, he is shining in a Ferrari, which is a top 3 car, capable of poles and wins... He is having an amazing season, but there was nothing in 2018 that suggested he was going to best Vettel in 2019 (he could have ended up like Gasly easily)... In regards to Ricciardo, he showed a lot in Red Bull, but how much was it due to the car and how much the driver (not taking anything away from him), but this season he hasn’t been dramatically better than Hulk and I will rate him close to Sainz... The only 2 proven commodities in the market today are Hamilton and Verstappen, but with a Renaissance like the one Mclaren needs to go through, neither of those will probably sign for the team at this point (RIC chose Renault over Mclaren last year for example).

There isn’t a driver in the grid today that I would prefer instead of Carlos or Lando today (with the exception of HAM and VER)... There are no other driver’s in the grid today that I would rate better than either of them currently... I will admit, that I would have loved to see Alonso driving the improved Mclaren, since he can be a measuring stick for any driver, but that won’t happen.


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UnaF1
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by UnaF1 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:53 pm

SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:12 pm
ivanlesk wrote:
RonDennis wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:08 pm
Nice for Sainz and the team, but personally I don't care much about since it wasn't based on pure pace.
It means a lot for team. It's a good reword for hard work and motivation to go further. As a big fan you say you are, you should probably care a little bit more.
Why though? He has a very valid point... It is nice for the team, nice for Sainz... But the team hasn’t joined the Top 3 in terms of performance... As a matter of fact, they haven’t clearly lead the midfield in terms of performance (they are clearly 4th best “all around” team... But they are not comfortably getting P7-P8 in Qualifying and the race).

As a fan, I will support the team in the good times and the bad times, but that doesn’t mean that I’m happy with their performance... The challenge is to get on the podium based on pace or on it’s own merit, that would be fantastic... Getting there thanks to several external factors (and in Brazil there were a lot of them) isn’t something to be overly excited about (to put things in perspective, they were beaten by a Toro Rosso).


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In the first year of the team revival!? Man, they were rock bottom just one year ago... Judge them two years from now, don't be so rigid

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by diffuser » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:01 pm

yep, Honda dead and buried in this tread! Lets talk Renault Merc

Agree RBR are no further ahead this year than they were last year.

SmallSoldier
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2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by SmallSoldier » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:05 pm

UnaF1 wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:12 pm
ivanlesk wrote:
It means a lot for team. It's a good reword for hard work and motivation to go further. As a big fan you say you are, you should probably care a little bit more.
Why though? He has a very valid point... It is nice for the team, nice for Sainz... But the team hasn’t joined the Top 3 in terms of performance... As a matter of fact, they haven’t clearly lead the midfield in terms of performance (they are clearly 4th best “all around” team... But they are not comfortably getting P7-P8 in Qualifying and the race).

As a fan, I will support the team in the good times and the bad times, but that doesn’t mean that I’m happy with their performance... The challenge is to get on the podium based on pace or on it’s own merit, that would be fantastic... Getting there thanks to several external factors (and in Brazil there were a lot of them) isn’t something to be overly excited about (to put things in perspective, they were beaten by a Toro Rosso).


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In the first year of the team revival!? Man, they were rock bottom just one year ago... Judge them two years from now, don't be so rigid
It’s not about been rigid... There are things that aren’t part of the chassis and that are in total control of the team that are not “top tier”... Pitstops come to mind... When a team as Williams is outperforming McLaren through the whole season in terms of pitstops, that’s something that needs to be sorted.

Let’s not be the overly enthusiastic, that’s all I’m saying... It’s like Williams claiming Brazil to be one of their best races because they finished 12th... When 6 cars didn’t finish the race and was penalized and they only had 2 laps after the safety car... They shouldn’t be bragging about it, right?


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FittingMechanics
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by FittingMechanics » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:31 pm

I haven't seen anyone be really overly enthusiastic or anyone bragging. People were happy McLaren got a podium in a chaotic race. This is what is a normal step toward returning to winning races. You first need to start getting an odd podium here and there, especially if top 3 teams have failures. Once you close the gap, you might have a car better suited for a certain track and you can start to challenge one of the top 3. It's baby steps, it's hard to expect that the team will be 1.5s behind in race pace and then start getting podiums on merit.

This podium and P4 for the team is a great motivation to work hard for the next years car. It's come in a perfect moment to rejuvenate the team after a long season.

Raleigh
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Raleigh » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:14 am

SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm
Where I will disagree strongly with you is on the drivers comment... Leclerc didn’t showed anything that the like of Norris has showed in their debut season, he is shining in a Ferrari, which is a top 3 car, capable of poles and wins... He is having an amazing season, but there was nothing in 2018 that suggested he was going to best Vettel in 2019 (he could have ended up like Gasly easily)...
I'm sorry but this simply isn't true, it was very clear how good Leclerc would be even before he reached F1.

Leclerc dominated the 2017 F2 season as a rookie (among his competition de Vries and Albon), jumped into the Alfa Romeo and immediately started annihilating Ericsson, dragging what was clearly a lower-midfield car into a string of solid points finishes and becoming an unlikely Q3 regular. Which earned him an unprecedented leap to driving for Ferrari with just 1 years F1 experience.

Before 2019 started when Ferrari announced Vettel would get No.1 status, the pre-season speculation was already "what will happen if Leclerc is faster than Vettel".

Leclerc and Verstappen are the two who have clearly demonstrated they will be stars of the future, the likes of Norris, Albon and Russel are still in the potential stars list.

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by diffuser » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:30 am

The tell is year 2. Norris needs to put an end to current trend. Needs to start matching sainz or bettering... Alo is only a phone call away.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by SmallSoldier » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:45 am

Raleigh wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm
Where I will disagree strongly with you is on the drivers comment... Leclerc didn’t showed anything that the like of Norris has showed in their debut season, he is shining in a Ferrari, which is a top 3 car, capable of poles and wins... He is having an amazing season, but there was nothing in 2018 that suggested he was going to best Vettel in 2019 (he could have ended up like Gasly easily)...
I'm sorry but this simply isn't true, it was very clear how good Leclerc would be even before he reached F1.

Leclerc dominated the 2017 F2 season as a rookie (among his competition de Vries and Albon), jumped into the Alfa Romeo and immediately started annihilating Ericsson, dragging what was clearly a lower-midfield car into a string of solid points finishes and becoming an unlikely Q3 regular. Which earned him an unprecedented leap to driving for Ferrari with just 1 years F1 experience.

Before 2019 started when Ferrari announced Vettel would get No.1 status, the pre-season speculation was already "what will happen if Leclerc is faster than Vettel".

Leclerc and Verstappen are the two who have clearly demonstrated they will be stars of the future, the likes of Norris, Albon and Russel are still in the potential stars list.
The fact that he dominated F2 is irrelevant (see Vandorne who also dominated it and didn’t had an stellar time in F1)... Outpacing Ericsson wasn’t either an achievement on itself since Marcus was never considered a top talent in F1.

I wouldn’t call Leclerc’s season in Alfa Romeo stellar and the comparison to Gasly is a fair one in my opinion (both showing potential in their debut seasons and having average team mates last year)... There is no denying of Leclerc’s ability and skill, but I don’t think that Norris rookie season is of a lower rating than Charles


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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Andres125sx » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:47 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm
It's painful to realize that if Mclaren had worked better no their relationship with Honda,
and not blindly follow their own failing 'size zero' packaging, they could have been very much where RedBull is now.
C´mon mate, RBR is exactly at same position he was past season with Renault, their switch to Honda has improved their position nothing, actually it´s the other way around, if there has been any perfomance change it´s been going down

Past season with Renault: 4 victories and 14 podiums
This season with Honda: 3 victories and 8 podiums

While McLaren has unquestionably improved going from Honda to Renault

There´s absolutely nothing to suggest Honda is faster than Renault, if any of you is thinking about Gasly-Hamilton drag race in Interlagos, STR said they went with a low drag setup so that will explain it. Remember Minardi was usually at the top of the top speed chart, but none ever suggested their engine was the fastest

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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Thunder » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:00 am

No we're not going down the Honda vs. Renault Rabbithole again. Just a Heads up. ;)
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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Re: 2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Thunder » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:27 am

Aaaaaand there goes the first Cleanup. Give it a Rest Guys.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
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