[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Oh well "several factors" changes everything and is absolutely a detailed explanation of what happened.

If I need to explain anything I will just use P.R. talk, "several factors".

Love the children on this forum. Clutching at straws does not an argument make.

No problem, you guys are the real experts! I defer to you and your boundless knowledge.

Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that? "Several factors"? Perfect, what a sublime understanding.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Oh well "several factors" changes everything and is absolutely a detailed explanation of what happened.

If I need to explain anything I will just use P.R. talk, "several factors".

Love the children on this forum. Clutching at straws does not an argument make.

No problem, you guys are the real experts! I defer to you and your boundless knowledge.

Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that? "Several factors"? Perfect, what a sublime understanding.
I agree with you, if that amounts to anything. I particularly liked the "apply countermeasures to deal with each of these, with aim of ensuring the fault does not happen again.". That can be interpreted as anything from fixing the issue to putting in debug code to get an idea of what is happening.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Honda is leaving, but they don't intend to leave RB high and dry. They plan to develop all through next year, and may even leave them with something for 2022.
This part actually has nothing to do with Honda. The decided to leave. That's that.

After the Honda news broke, RBR first choice was to dump Honda and go to Merc, not sure they asked Ferrari, and we're denied. Otherwise it would have been a firm "good riddance" from RBR to Honda. So the rest of this is about not having to eat Crow.

I do have a pet peeve with Honda. In that they're not real racers, I believe, that they are truly in F1 as an Engineering exercise, Engineer Education, training ground, whatever you want to call it. That to me explains their clumsy reentry into the sport and now exit to the sport. They just aren't here for the sport. Which is ok I guess. Their money, they can do what they want with it. They're not like the other 3 manufacturers that have stayed in the sport for multiple decades.

Zynerji
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Ferrari continuously threatens to leave, while Merc/Renault have been in and out before.

And, can you give a source to the "good riddance" attitude the you claim RBR to have? I have only come across articles that show this to be a great relationship broken up by the Honda corporate board. Not by how the relationship actually feels/functions.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

NL_Fer
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:26 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:40 pm
Do you think if something like this in Mugello happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down?
I don't think they can.
.
Honda couldn't either, it isn't a technical issue, it is a part issue.
.
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:38 pm
They attempted to fix the issue in a technical sense and could not do it. It is a moot point because neither team could fix it from a technical point.

When Max binned it on the reconnaissance lap in Hungary, that was a technical fix.

Honda couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. They did not repair the issue, credit to Honda for producing the components which have since been perfectly reliable.

24-09-2020 From the Honda Racing F1 site:
TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1

After the last triple header, we now start a period of races with the more usual two week break in between.
Using the time since Mugello, our priority has been to carefully analyse the reason for Max’s retirement in that race.
Our investigation revealed that several factors caused the problem and we have been able to apply countermeasures to deal with each of these, with the aim of ensuring the fault does not happen again.

As part of its original plan, Honda will introduce some final new power unit elements for drivers this weekend, with this being the final change before the end of the season.

The move to the third power units is not related to any of the problems that emerged at Mugello.


* So you claim that Honda could not find the causes, couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. and therefore put in new engines, whereby the parts worked well.
* Tanabe says they found the causes, "several factors caused the problem," and took steps to stop it happening again.

Well, that Tanabe is quite a liar if I take your claim as the truth.
That sounds like proper Japanese for saying: we don’t know, or it was so bad we are not going to tell you. They will never take the humiliation, for admitting they don’t have a clue.

But to go back to the first question, why would a British engineer not be able te troubleshoot an engine problem? If they have al the schematics and drawings?

Also, Redbull could hire current Honda engineers now stationed in Milton Keynes.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:59 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Honda is leaving, but they don't intend to leave RB high and dry. They plan to develop all through next year, and may even leave them with something for 2022.
This part actually has nothing to do with Honda. The decided to leave. That's that.

After the Honda news broke, RBR first choice was to dump Honda and go to Merc, not sure they asked Ferrari, and we're denied. Otherwise it would have been a firm "good riddance" from RBR to Honda. So the rest of this is about not having to eat Crow.

I do have a pet peeve with Honda. In that they're not real racers, I believe, that they are truly in F1 as an Engineering exercise, Engineer Education, training ground, whatever you want to call it. That to me explains their clumsy reentry into the sport and now exit to the sport. They just aren't here for the sport. Which is ok I guess. Their money, they can do what they want with it. They're not like the other 3 manufacturers that have stayed in the sport for multiple decades.
I truly believe that Honda cannot continue in F1 because of forces beyond their control.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Instead of leaving, come to the table and suggest something else. Renault are on the record for saying "drop these PU ASAP and go all electric or something more relative". Nope, Honda just said we're leaving. Doesn't sound like they're invested in F1.
Last edited by diffuser on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that?
They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement.

Unless you have evidence that RBR already have a team of equivalent expertise and experience to the other engine manufacturers directly responsible for running power units? But it would be an odd use of limited resources to invest in something that Honda was responsible for, would it not?

However, if you are so sure they won't need to hire anybody in because they already have sufficient competence, then that's your call.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:05 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that?
They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement.

Unless you have evidence that RBR already have a team of equivalent expertise and experience to the other engine manufacturers directly responsible for running power units? But it would be an odd use of limited resources to invest in something that Honda was responsible for, would it not?

However, if you are so sure they won't need to hire anybody in because they already have sufficient competence, then that's your call.
Dishonest drivel.

Do you have evidence that RBR can't put together a team in a year to manage the power unit side? There's no budget cap on the engine side, are you aware of how the budget cap operates?

Where did I claim they wouldn't hire anyone? You and your reddit friends are claiming RBR is incompetent and couldn't run a power unit program, where is your proof?

"They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement. "

This is what you pass off as proof? It's not a controversial statement, but it's not correct, and believe me I'm trying to be as respectful as possible, something that's not apparently possible for some members here.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 pm


That sounds like proper Japanese for saying: we don’t know, or it was so bad we are not going to tell you. They will never take the humiliation, for admitting they don’t have a clue.

My experience with Japanese is that they very quickly put the blame on themselves. For example, they will never say it was due to a supplier.

But to go back to the first question, why would a British engineer not be able te troubleshoot an engine problem? If they have al the schematics and drawings?

First of all, they have absolutely no experience with the Honda engine and secondly, who says Honda just gives the schematics and drawings to RB? RB will have to attract people from outside so strange people will see those schematics and drawings.
I don't think they're ever going to give their IP to anyone else.


Also, Redbull could hire current Honda engineers now stationed in Milton Keynes.

Koji Watanabe said earier this week: " The people who currently work on the F1 project are THE pros in that region(field), and they no longer will be available to work on F1 because of the need to have them work on the future power unit and energy laboratory. It is not that we've lost interest in F1 or that F1 is no good."

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I think some need to separate out thoughts for 'maintaining' a power unit 'developing ' a power unit and Designing' a power unit. The three are miles apart.

A guy from your local Ford dealership has not much idea at all when it comes to designing and building the engine, but usually does a good job of keeping it running to its maximum (or there about)

A guy with slightly improved skillsets can probably eek a few more horses out of than the first guy, and probably get a feel of what could be slightly improved, if he had the kit.

This is a different world to the one where a bunch of people sit down with computers and a list of specs and actually start work on planning building and testing the unit.

NO WAY is a company set up add hock like this going to come up with a competitive engine in less than maybe 4-5 years, and by then it will be out of date.

I assume Red Bull and Honda are thinking along the lines of the first guy, with possibly some assistance from the company to touch on the second guy's job.

Once it is up and running they can think of bringing in people to look at the third guys job with the experience thy have at running the plant and with people from other plants that are already doing it.

Possible and Daydreaming are not the same thing.'
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:14 pm
Wynters wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:05 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that?
They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement.

Unless you have evidence that RBR already have a team of equivalent expertise and experience to the other engine manufacturers directly responsible for running power units? But it would be an odd use of limited resources to invest in something that Honda was responsible for, would it not?

However, if you are so sure they won't need to hire anybody in because they already have sufficient competence, then that's your call.
Dishonest drivel.

Do you have evidence that RBR can't put together a team in a year to manage the power unit side? There's no budget cap on the engine side, are you aware of how the budget cap operates?

Where did I claim they wouldn't hire anyone? You and your reddit friends are claiming RBR is incompetent and couldn't run a power unit program, where is your proof?

"They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement. "

This is what you pass off as proof? It's not a controversial statement, but it's not correct, and believe me I'm trying to be as respectful as possible, something that's not apparently possible for some members here.
Your claim is really very clear. Despite your (ironic, if unsurprising) transparently dishonest attempt to pretend you said something different.
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that?
The explanation is that they don't have the competence currently to do it.

You've provided no proof, not even circumstantial, to support your opinion, and have already changed your argument.
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Do you have evidence that RBR can't put together a team in a year to manage the power unit side? There's no budget cap on the engine side, are you aware of how the budget cap operates?

Where did I claim they wouldn't hire anyone?
So now it's no longer about whether Red Bull are competent enough to run the power unit, but whether they could become competent enough to run the power unit.

I'll point out that you 'respectfully' called the very point you are now trumpeting (that Red Bull would have to hire people in), "dishonest drivel" ... In the same post.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:26 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:14 pm
Wynters wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:05 pm
They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement.

Unless you have evidence that RBR already have a team of equivalent expertise and experience to the other engine manufacturers directly responsible for running power units? But it would be an odd use of limited resources to invest in something that Honda was responsible for, would it not?

However, if you are so sure they won't need to hire anybody in because they already have sufficient competence, then that's your call.
Dishonest drivel.

Do you have evidence that RBR can't put together a team in a year to manage the power unit side? There's no budget cap on the engine side, are you aware of how the budget cap operates?

Where did I claim they wouldn't hire anyone? You and your reddit friends are claiming RBR is incompetent and couldn't run a power unit program, where is your proof?

"They have no competence in running a power unit because that's not been their responsibility. It's hardly a controversial statement. "

This is what you pass off as proof? It's not a controversial statement, but it's not correct, and believe me I'm trying to be as respectful as possible, something that's not apparently possible for some members here.
Your claim is really very clear. Despite your (ironic, if unsurprising) transparently dishonest attempt to pretend you said something different.
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Tell me more about how Red Bull is too incompetent to run the power unit. How do you explain that?
The explanation is that they don't have the competence currently to do it.

You've provided no proof, not even circumstantial, to support your opinion, and have already changed your argument.
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:53 pm
Do you have evidence that RBR can't put together a team in a year to manage the power unit side? There's no budget cap on the engine side, are you aware of how the budget cap operates?

Where did I claim they wouldn't hire anyone?
So now it's no longer about whether Red Bull are competent enough to run the power unit, but whether they could become competent enough to run the power unit.

I'll point out that you 'respectfully' called the very point you are now trumpeting (that Red Bull would have to hire people in), "dishonest drivel" ... In the same post.
Who cares if they can't currently do it? What difference does it make? Honda is currently doing that, your speculation relies on ignoring reality. You're asking for proof of hypothetical speculation, which you yourself are doing. What you say is dishonest drivel, and as far as I can tell you're just starting an argument because I rub you some sort of way. It's pathetic really. Seriously crying because of my opinion, I never claimed to be anything, it seems to me that it's pure childish jealousy, that your entire life revolves around one upping people on the internet.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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If and when that time comes, it will be RBR's risk and their dime. I'm ok with that part.