2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dren wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:44 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:41 pm
The new engine and transmission has helped tremendously in rear stability. Last year they had to make compromises on the suspension settings, making the rear end more stiff, because there was a little flex in the back. This year they can make the suspension more compliant because the engine and transmission are stiffer, lighter, more compact, and a lower center of gravity. This greatly aids rear stability.

By increasing the space for air to flow inside the bodywork, the higher the pressure inside the bodywork becomes. We saw a glimpse of this when Perez's engine cover blew off the car. Once he pulled out of the slipstream the pressure inside the car increased dramatically. It is this pressure difference that helps airflow stay attached to the engine cover.
I'd wager their rear issue was aero related but I don't know. I find it hard to believe the PU was not stiff enough.

Not quite sure what you're getting at in the second paragraph. Increasing internal volume for air flow should drop the pressure. I have no clue how a pressure difference inside the body work helps flow stay attached to the engine cover.
The engine was stiff enough, the installation between transmission and engine was not.

Increasing internal volume increases the pressure because pressure is a function of flow times velocity. The higher the mass flow and the lower the velocity the higher the pressure. This is how the turbo compressor creates boost pressure. The air gets sucked in through the blades at high speed, then the snail slows it down, raising it's static pressure.

If the surface on top of the body has airflow going faster than through it, then that airflow has lower pressure. The ambient air pressure around that moving low pressure air presses down against it, since it's slower and has higher static pressure. That's how the Coanda effect works.

If you could create a cube of perfect vacuum 1 cubic inch in volume, you would have 1 bar of air pressing down on each side of the cube. Your brake caliper piston retracts because of the closed hydraulic system resists a vacuum created when you press and release the brake pedal. The fullness of air outside affects the relative lack of air inside.
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Or you know, just like usual in testing when we've had covers off every other car, the fit and finish weren't good enough, someone missed a clip, or they didn't tape up for a test run.
And the engine CoG is the same as last years unit.

And just fwiw, brake caliper piston retraction is mainly because the piston seal pulls it back, not the air pressure vs fluid pressure. Pressure in your brake system shouldn't drop below ambient, after all :wink:

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I thought Checo's blown engine cover was due to "funnel drag" as the cover seems to be accelerating the air by venturi principle, and using it to blow the top of the diffuser to aid extraction...🤔

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Tanabe made comments that air flows into the body and over the engine, and after Perez's engine cover blew off there was still a cover that didn't expose piping and harnesses. It probably is meant to channel air through the body and out the openings, possibly a pressure gradient? The inner engine cover may also be the cause of the heat management concerns.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:08 pm
Or you know, just like usual in testing when we've had covers off every other car, the fit and finish weren't good enough, someone missed a clip, or they didn't tape up for a test run.
I actually wonder about this. It seems an uncommonly common failure in testing but rarely after. Finger trouble multiplied by much taking on and off of bodywork?

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:08 pm
Or you know, just like usual in testing when we've had covers off every other car, the fit and finish weren't good enough, someone missed a clip, or they didn't tape up for a test run.
And the engine CoG is the same as last years unit.

And just fwiw, brake caliper piston retraction is mainly because the piston seal pulls it back, not the air pressure vs fluid pressure. Pressure in your brake system shouldn't drop below ambient, after all :wink:
The system is technically closed, when you press the brake pedal, you increase the pressure of the hydraulic system, when you release the pressure, lack of air in the system resists the displacement of fluid. Yes you are correct, the seal pulls the piston back, but it does so because the suction from the hydraulics pulls the seal. The actual deformation of the seal alone would not be able to retract the piston quickly enough.

The point about the engine cover blowing off is to highlight how much air pressure exists inside the bodywork.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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No, when you release the pressure, that's exactly it, you're releasing pressure in the system, not pulling back the piston from some sort of air pressure on the piston face - chances are the pressure in the hydraulics is still above ambient anyway, especially on a race system which often has a low pressure fill in the reservoirs.
Air pressure doesn't need to retract it quickly enough, the pad pushing back on the piston will do that...

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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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nzjrs wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:00 am
I actually wonder about this. It seems an uncommonly common failure in testing but rarely after. Finger trouble multiplied by much taking on and off of bodywork?
There's often shortcuts from not taping up the seams in testing - all those 2-3 minutes every time adds up otherwise.

Revs84
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-re ... i/6146766/

I know this is coming from the Italian branch of Motorsport.com, which are well known for baseless speculation and rumours, but I also think that there usually always is some truth behind such rumours - to whichever extent that could be.

In any case, they are saying there are rumours (and again, they could be just that), that Red Bull is set to implement some sort of solution that mimicks rear wheel steering without going against the regulations - since we all know that rear wheel steering is not allowed.

Curiously, the article says that "The idea would not be of the "genius" Newey, but of a German structure that would have offered Red Bull the opportunity to evaluate the project and the particular design of the rear suspension of the RB16B could favor precisely the action of the simulation of the steering rear wheels."

In the past, Giorgio Piola had already pointed that this is something that Mercedes have had for a while.

Any thoughts on whether this rumour could hold any water, or if it's just a baseless, well, rumour?

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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how it will react when you do counter steering?

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:46 am
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-re ... i/6146766/

I know this is coming from the Italian branch of Motorsport.com, which are well known for baseless speculation and rumours, but I also think that there usually always is some truth behind such rumours - to whichever extent that could be.

In any case, they are saying there are rumours (and again, they could be just that), that Red Bull is set to implement some sort of solution that mimicks rear wheel steering without going against the regulations - since we all know that rear wheel steering is not allowed.

Curiously, the article says that "The idea would not be of the "genius" Newey, but of a German structure that would have offered Red Bull the opportunity to evaluate the project and the particular design of the rear suspension of the RB16B could favor precisely the action of the simulation of the steering rear wheels."

In the past, Giorgio Piola had already pointed that this is something that Mercedes have had for a while.

Any thoughts on whether this rumour could hold any water, or if it's just a baseless, well, rumour?
Honda/Acura has this on their FWD version of the Legend sedan, it's called Precision All Wheel Steer (PAWS) . Not sure what the German reference the article refers to, but Honda has extensive knowledge regarding 4 wheel steering. Maybe RedBull have tapped that knowledge.

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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:46 am
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-re ... i/6146766/

I know this is coming from the Italian branch of Motorsport.com, which are well known for baseless speculation and rumours, but I also think that there usually always is some truth behind such rumours - to whichever extent that could be.

In any case, they are saying there are rumours (and again, they could be just that), that Red Bull is set to implement some sort of solution that mimicks rear wheel steering without going against the regulations - since we all know that rear wheel steering is not allowed.

Curiously, the article says that "The idea would not be of the "genius" Newey, but of a German structure that would have offered Red Bull the opportunity to evaluate the project and the particular design of the rear suspension of the RB16B could favor precisely the action of the simulation of the steering rear wheels."

In the past, Giorgio Piola had already pointed that this is something that Mercedes have had for a while.

Any thoughts on whether this rumour could hold any water, or if it's just a baseless, well, rumour?
It's most likely to be complete BS. Franco Nugnes has been speculating about this in some form for years and years.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:26 am
No, when you release the pressure, that's exactly it, you're releasing pressure in the system, not pulling back the piston from some sort of air pressure on the piston face - chances are the pressure in the hydraulics is still above ambient anyway, especially on a race system which often has a low pressure fill in the reservoirs.
Air pressure doesn't need to retract it quickly enough, the pad pushing back on the piston will do that...
Then why does the system not collapse as the pads are worn and the piston extends on its own?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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This seems silly?!

The reservoir on the master cylinder is there to fill the space for the receding pads.

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dren
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
The engine was stiff enough, the installation between transmission and engine was not.
Attachment is standardized via regulations. Perhaps the transmission was the issue. Isn't this where tokens were spent? I still recon it was something to do with their aero, maybe nose/cape design? I read it was an easy fix once they figured it out. I don't know, but that's my guess.

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
Increasing internal volume increases the pressure because pressure is a function of flow times velocity. The higher the mass flow and the lower the velocity the higher the pressure. This is how the turbo compressor creates boost pressure. The air gets sucked in through the blades at high speed, then the snail slows it down, raising it's static pressure.
This makes my head hurt.

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
If the surface on top of the body has airflow going faster than through it, then that airflow has lower pressure. The ambient air pressure around that moving low pressure air presses down against it, since it's slower and has higher static pressure. That's how the Coanda effect works.
Coanda effect does not require a pressure difference between sides of a body. It requires pressure difference on sides of a flow stream.
Honda!