Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2014

[Jonnycraig]

Not sure what point you are trying to make really. The Merc clearly has a very good chassis and good aero, and the RB10 clearly has a fantastic chassis & aero, it's just massively down on power. If both cars had identical PU's it wouldve likely been a very interesting 4 way title fight.

Trying to deny that the Merc PU has a large power advantage over the Ferrari & Renault ones is like trying to claim the earth is flat.

[Manoah2u]

Not sure what point you are trying to make really. The Merc clearly has a very good chassis and good aero, and the RB10 clearly has a fantastic chassis & aero, it's just massively down on power. If both cars had identical PU's it wouldve likely been a very interesting 4 way title fight.

Trying to deny that the Merc PU has a large power advantage over the Ferrari & Renault ones is like trying to claim the earth is flat.

Did i deny the Merc has a PU advantage?

I simply don't agree the RedBull would kick Merc's ass if there was a Merc engine in there whilst other merc-powered teams provable aren't able to do that either.

Furthermore, I add the point that i don't believe that power defecit is as big as 75 HP because 75 HP is a huge amount of power, and if either RedBull or Ferrari had 75 HP less, neither of the teams would EVER be able to beat ANY of the Merc powered teams no matter how good their aero is - its not like the williams force india and mclaren are concrete bricks compared to the RedBull, Ferrari, etc.

[SectorOne]

The Merc clearly has a very good chassis and good aero, and the RB10 clearly has a fantastic chassis & aero, it's just massively down on power.

I´m not too sure we can still maintain that the RB has a better chassis and/or better aero.

Last quick comparison i heard was from Brundle and i think it was from Sochi, he said Red Bull are braking later then Mercedes but Mercedes are carrying more speed through that particular corner. (think it was turn 2, not sure)

Anyway, if we can get two laps from the same track showing the GUI we can compare apex speeds and see what the true story is.

[Harsha]

The Merc clearly has a very good chassis and good aero, and the RB10 clearly has a fantastic chassis & aero, it's just massively down on power.

I´m not too sure we can still maintain that the RB has a better chassis and/or better aero.

Last quick comparison i heard was from Brundle and i think it was from Sochi, he said Red Bull are braking later then Mercedes but Mercedes are carrying more speed through that particular corner. (think it was turn 2, not sure)

Anyway, if we can get two laps from the same track showing the GUI we can compare apex speeds and see what the true story is.

Its from T5 not T2 if i remember it correctly


But at that track RBR is trying to gain any decent straight speed vs almighty merc will not be a comparable one.
I prefer Hungary or Singapore to check the best difference

[Juzh]

The Merc clearly has a very good chassis and good aero, and the RB10 clearly has a fantastic chassis & aero, it's just massively down on power.

I´m not too sure we can still maintain that the RB has a better chassis and/or better aero.

Last quick comparison i heard was from Brundle and i think it was from Sochi, he said Red Bull are braking later then Mercedes but Mercedes are carrying more speed through that particular corner. (think it was turn 2, not sure)

Anyway, if we can get two laps from the same track showing the GUI we can compare apex speeds and see what the true story is.

Didn't RB run a reduced aero setup that race? Anyway, I think RB started the year with clearly the best chassis, but then got overtaken by merc at some point after the summer break.

[lio007]

The Merc clearly has a very good chassis and good aero, and the RB10 clearly has a fantastic chassis & aero, it's just massively down on power.

I´m not too sure we can still maintain that the RB has a better chassis and/or better aero.

Last quick comparison i heard was from Brundle and i think it was from Sochi, he said Red Bull are braking later then Mercedes but Mercedes are carrying more speed through that particular corner. (think it was turn 2, not sure)

Anyway, if we can get two laps from the same track showing the GUI we can compare apex speeds and see what the true story is.

Didn't RB run a reduced aero setup that race? Anyway, I think RB started the year with clearly the best chassis, but then got overtaken by merc at some point after the summer break.

MAYBE overtaken by Merc, by the fact that they stopped to develop the RB10 and that they had to decrease DF go gain topspeed?

[Jonnycraig]

I simply don't agree the RedBull would kick Merc's ass if there was a Merc engine in there whilst other merc-powered teams provable aren't able to do that either.

Not sure what Williams & Force India being behind Mercedes really shows, neither has anywhere near the finances of resources of Mercedes so it's hardly surprising they havent managed to build a competitive chassis.

McLaren have plenty of resources, but by their own admission have built a pup this year and for obvious reasons have not had any access to the most current engine developments.

[Manoah2u]

Again, there is no way aero can compensate for an extreme amount like 75 HP engine benefit of these smaller teams like williams and force india. Again, it's not like Williams and Force india missing out on the insane budget that RedBull is able to spend that in comparison the RedBull is a Concorde and the Williams and Force india's are brick walls with a Merc engine.

In other words; 75 HP cannot be compensated by aero alone - which leads me to simply conclude the power defecit that excists between Merc and Renault/Ferrari is NOT 75 HP, but a smaller amount. There most definately WILL be a power defecit, it's unlikely to be 75 HP though.

[Juzh]

In other words; 75 HP cannot be compensated by aero alone

Says you.

- which leads me to simply conclude the power defecit that excists between Merc and Renault/Ferrari is NOT 75 HP, but a smaller amount. There most definately WILL be a power defecit, it's unlikely to be 75 HP though.

http://vimeo.com/109371409

Go to 3:38. Ric gets on the power earlier and has much better traction which puts him side by side with perez, but as as soon as FI it at full throttle he's left behind in a very similar fashion to the old 80 bhp kers. You need some serious grunt to overcome that much deficit in an initial drag race. Not to mention RB ran plain tooth pick wings. Front and rear.


compared to:

[turbof1]

75bhp is roughly 10% of the peak power. That's absurd; that'd equate something around 1.25s a lap. Red bull's aero surely will be better then FI, mcl. williams. But 1.25s purely by aero? Not in these days.

There will be a deficit, but not 10%. Take half of that and it you're getting to a more believable number. Again, I'd like to reiterate that in qualy we never see such a big deficit, because the battery is fully charged. The real advantage sits in race pace, where the mercedes PU can harvest more then the Renault one. A 50bhp number during the race is I think a fair assesment, since the mercedes PU can just send more electric power through the mgu-k on the driveshaft.

The PU solutions from Mercedes btw have a knock-on effect on the aero. The log style exhaust for instance saves the space of a briefcase. Since Renault is missing that, I'm not so sure Red Bull has better aero then mercedes.

[Juzh]

Again, I'd like to reiterate that in qualy we never see such a big deficit, because the battery is fully charged.

What? Just look at speed trap data lol. This is not DRS rev limiter era anymore when RB was slow in the speed traps, but still actually got to the end of them faster because of better acceleration. If you're 10 clicks slower now, you're losing troughout the whole straight, not just last 100m.
Also, There's a general misconception floating around that RB with those low wings in monza was actually quicker down the straights than merc or williams because of the infamous tv graphic showing ricciardo doing 362, which couldn't be further from the truth. Hamilton did 361 behind massa very early in the race and then sat on that number for some time even when he pulled out of the slipstream.
Also, merc has a clever K-shutoff system which kills K power after a certain speed has been reached. Very obvious watching onboards in spa and monza. They would reach 330 kph, then suddenly start to drop few clicks before the braking zone. So they in effect sit on much higher speeds for much longer periods, but then because of the shut off clock slower trough the speed traps.

The real advantage sits in race pace, where the mercedes PU can harvest more then the Renault one. A 50bhp number during the race is I think a fair assesment, since the mercedes PU can just send more electric power through the mgu-k on the driveshaft.

So we're back to square one. It's the engine.

I'm not so sure Red Bull has better aero then mercedes.

Anymore.

[turbof1]

Also, merc has a clever K-shutoff system which kills K power after a certain speed has been reached. Very obvious watching onboards in spa and monza. They would reach 330 kph, then suddenly start to drop few clicks before the braking zone. So they in effect sit on much higher speeds for much longer periods, but then because of the shut off clock slower trough the speed traps.

That's called allocation. The mgu-k is only to have an output of 4MJ; you need to spread that in an optimized way. I presume at 330kph the k power will be offset by the drag. I'm pretty sure Renault and Ferrari do the same thing.

What? Just look at speed trap data lol. This is not DRS rev limiter era anymore when RB was slow in the speed traps, but still actually got to the end of them faster because of better acceleration. If you're 10 clicks slower now, you're losing troughout the whole straight, not just last 100m.

I believe that there's a deficit, I don't believe the deficit is 75bhp which translated in over a second a lap.

Also, There's a general misconception floating around that RB with those low wings in monza was actually quicker down the straights than merc or williams because of the infamous tv graphic showing ricciardo doing 362, which couldn't be further from the truth. Hamilton did 361 behind massa very early in the race and then sat on that number for some time even when he pulled out of the slipstream.

And here comes the issue of allocation again. As said before, for the optimum laptime you need to spread the 4MJ. However for overtaking you probably want to have the extra power above the normal cut off point. Is it possible to reach 362kph? Possible if you allocate a big part of the 4MJ on just one straight. I'm not saying that this what happened, just that this is a possibility.

So we're back to square one. It's the engine.

No we are not since that changes the picture. Horner is incorrect to say they have 75bhp deficit, since the biggest issue is the harvesting. Going from a 750bhp PU to a 825bhp PU will not change a thing if they don't increase harvesting efficiency.

[FW17]

And here comes the issue of allocation again. As said before, for the optimum laptime you need to spread the 4MJ. However for overtaking you probably want to have the extra power above the normal cut off point. Is it possible to reach 362kph? Possible if you allocate a big part of the 4MJ on just one straight. I'm not saying that this what happened, just that this is a possibility.

You cannot allocate 33 seconds of 160hp power down the front straight of monza which is less than 15 seconds

[turbof1]

The answer to your dilemma is in the same quoted piece:

And here comes the issue of allocation again. As said before, for the optimum laptime you need to spread the 4MJ. However for overtaking you probably want to have the extra power above the normal cut off point. Is it possible to reach 362kph? Possible if you allocate a big part of the 4MJ on just one straight. I'm not saying that this what happened, just that this is a possibility.

[Jonnycraig]

I believe that there's a deficit, I don't believe the deficit is 75bhp which translated in over a second a lap.

And yet at Monza, Williams were 0.8 faster than the quickest non-Merc car in qualifying, where the Ferrari & Renault's can harvest most effectively.