Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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santos
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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alexx_88 wrote:
alexx_88 wrote:The performance of this year's Ferrari finally shows the stupidity of the claim that drivers actually have a significant role in car development. This year's Ferrari was developed while Alonso was there, as the last 4 cars were as well. Wouldn't you say that it's much more plausible the improvement came from the engineers that were hired and from the complete 180 degrees change in approach that happened with Ferrari's leadership?

Although Forghieri is a legend, he probably lacks the understanding of today's data acquisition systems and how useless driver feedback is for a power unit which has 3 motors and 2 generators.
Brilliant, just had the post downvoted and marked as incorrect :lol: So which part is actually incorrect:
1. The fact that this year's car was developed in 2014.
2. The fact that the last 4 cars before it were also developed while Alonso was employed there
3. The fact that PU engineers were hired during 2014
4. The fact that Forghieri, although a legend, isn't up to speed with today's F1

PS: This post downvoting without giving the ability to reply is really, really bad and encourages a bad attitude from the members who are allowed to downvote.
Yeah... it happened to me also. I was marked as a fan boy, maybe by some Alonso groupie.

bhall II
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Andres125sx wrote:Different drivers perform different on different tracks. Kimi may be faster at track A while Alonso may be faster at track B. Even car setups are different what means one can be faster at some track and slower at some other
That's completely irrelevant. If driver-X is slower than driver-Y in the same car at the same circuit, the gap is a reflection of driver-X's performance, not the car's capability.

In other words, it doesn't matter who does it as long as it's done, because that definitively proves it can be done.

And if you have an issue with me referring to Briatore as Alonso's manager, take it up with Mark Hughes...

Image
Source: Motorsport Magazine, December 3, 2014

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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alexx_88 wrote:
alexx_88 wrote:The performance of this year's Ferrari finally shows the stupidity of the claim that drivers actually have a significant role in car development. This year's Ferrari was developed while Alonso was there, as the last 4 cars were as well. Wouldn't you say that it's much more plausible the improvement came from the engineers that were hired and from the complete 180 degrees change in approach that happened with Ferrari's leadership?

Although Forghieri is a legend, he probably lacks the understanding of today's data acquisition systems and how useless driver feedback is for a power unit which has 3 motors and 2 generators.
Brilliant, just had the post downvoted and marked as incorrect :lol: So which part is actually incorrect:
1. The fact that this year's car was developed in 2014.
2. The fact that the last 4 cars before it were also developed while Alonso was employed there
3. The fact that PU engineers were hired during 2014
4. The fact that Forghieri, although a legend, isn't up to speed with today's F1

PS: This post downvoting without giving the ability to reply is really, really bad and encourages a bad attitude from the members who are allowed to downvote.
On Ferrari forum, be ready to get down voted if you are criticizing Ferrari. That's how it works here, not logic. Don't worry too much about these votes. Yes, if one down vote causes a million dollar to disappear from your bank account, then you should. Keep dragging Ben (bhall II) here, that is the only useful thing that can happen, even if that happens at the cost of a down vote. It's worth his explanations.

On the topic though, I have argued hard in the past that, in today's generation where there are so many sophisticated equipments available, driver's inputs doesn't count for much in development of PU or Car.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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bhall II wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Different drivers perform different on different tracks. Kimi may be faster at track A while Alonso may be faster at track B. Even car setups are different what means one can be faster at some track and slower at some other
That's completely irrelevant. If driver-X is slower than driver-Y in the same car at the same circuit, the gap is a reflection of driver-X's performance, not the car's capability.

In other words, it doesn't matter who does it as long as it's done, because that definitively proves it can be done.
You´re failing on a basic point, driver X (Raikonnen) only drove F14T, and driver Y (Button) only drive MP4-30 so you´re comparing different drivers and different cars and assuming any difference is only due to the car

How do you know if Kimi is really good at Spain (so he was faster than Alonso), while Button is not that good at Spain (so Alonso is faster than him)? If this happens, you´re comparing Kimi´s laptime with Alonso´s laptime with different cars, so there´s a difference both due to the car and driver, and you´re claiming that difference is only because of the car. Wrong.

As I said, you´re bringing in more variables you can´t evaluate so your chances to get it wrong go up.

If you want to compare two cars and you can do it with same driver, it´s a nosense comparing both cars with different drivers. It´s like if you want to compare two tyres and instead of comparing on same car you put tyre A on a Ferrari and tyre B on a McLaren. That´s not how comparisons are done, to compare anything you must reduce or eliminate any other variable as much as posible, and maybe you disagree, but IMO drivers play a role on laptimes so they´re a variable you should eliminate if trying to compare two different cars.

This is basic for any analysis, I really can´t understand how are you trying to compare two different cars with different drivers when you can do the comparison with same driver.

bhall II wrote:And if you have an issue with me referring to Briatore as Alonso's manager, take it up with Mark Hughes...

http://i.imgur.com/7J9PygA.jpg
Source: Motorsport Magazine, December 3, 2014
I don´t have any issue, just informing you

bhall II
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Andres125sx wrote:I really can´t understand how are you trying to compare two different cars with different drivers when you can do the comparison with same driver.
And I can't understand a type of logic that arbitrarily ignores documented laptimes as if they don't exist. So, let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

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Andres125sx
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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bhall II wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:I really can´t understand how are you trying to compare two different cars with different drivers when you can do the comparison with same driver.
And I can't understand a type of logic that arbitrarily ignores documented laptimes as if they don't exist. So, let's just agree to disagree, shall we?
Arbitrarily? I´ve explain it perfectly, it´s anything but arbitrary.

But if you think taking different drivers to compare two cars is ok when you can do the same with same driver, then yes, let´s agree to disagree

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Andres125sx wrote:
bhall II wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:You Ferrari fans think Ferrari should be proud of fighting for 2nd place?
It's much better to be fighting for P2 than it is to be fighting for Q2. :D
Sorry but you´re insisting on the same, comparing Ferrari with McH so Ferrari doesn´t look that bad, when Ferrari should be comparing with Mercedes, not with the first season of a long term project

And you didn´t answer the question, as everyone reading this thread. Coincidence? Or maybe Alonso is not far wrong there? :wink:
Come on mate! I'm not a Ferrari fan/enthusiast, it just so happens that the driver I support is driving for them. However, I have the utmost respect for teams like Ferrari, McLaren and Williams. There are a lot of fans that I see that bicker and mourn about Red Bull being a marketing gimmick and their sole purpose of them being in F1 is to promote their energy drink. No one ever thinks that if they pull the plug we will be left with a highly small group, a couple that are significantly handicapped. Red Bull themselves haven't spared Renault, who have a rich F1 history. My point is, that petrol heads and racing fans like you and me don't think much before tearing them to shreds on an internet forum just because our favourite driver isn't treated in the manner we would like to see the team treat them. Over the years, I've come to realise that the sport is bigger than the teams which in turn is bigger than the drivers, so I tend to go easy on the teams. Don't get me wrong, I was probably more cynical about Ferrari than you are right now when they ousted Schumacher who's been my childhood hero. So, I don't blame you, but perhaps you'll look at Fernando and Ferrari in better light once he hangs up his boots. His 'best' time in F1 to date has been in that red car.

Secondly, if you're willing to accept the disaster McLaren Honda is this year, relative to Mercedes and willing to call it a 'long term project,' you can't be so naive about the Ferrari 'renaissance.' It's not as if Ferrari were comfortably second last year and they're still there this year. They were hammered by the likes of RBR, Williams last year and dare I say that without Alonso, I don't think they would have been where they ended up at the end of the year. What I'm trying to say is that just like you're willing to give McLaren an opportunity to grow as a team, so you have to with Ferrari.

Lastly, there's no team with the history or legacy of Ferrari. While that doesn't mean resting on your laurels, it certainly doesn't mean getting belittled for the sake of anyone.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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The only number Ferrari should be interested in is, imo, the pace difference to first place. It doesn't matter (up to a point) if you have one team in front or two, you still have to improve your package by that amount in order to have a chance.

So, yeah, looking at the Monza FP results, things are not looking much better for Ferrari in their quest to win the championship, compared to 2014. There are still a good few tenths between Mercedes and them, maybe even more than that, depending on how much Lewis' engine was de-tuned after Rosberg's failure.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Schuttelberg wrote:My point is, that petrol heads and racing fans like you and me don't think much before tearing them to shreds on an internet forum just because our favourite driver isn't treated in the manner we would like to see the team treat them.
I´ve never complained about how Ferrari treated Alonso, maybe the last season it could have been a bit better, but nothing serious, it was a difficult season and I understand the atmosphere was far from the best

All this discussion started with your comment (yes, you´re the responsible :mrgreen: ) about Alonso saying Ferrari shouldn´t be proud, with some smilies like if he would be mad. I only pointed he has some reasons to say that, but that does not mean I´m criticizing Ferrari, as I said IMO Ferrari is here to win, so only winning is what should make them proud. I think people thinking Ferrari should be proud of fighting for 2nd are not true Ferrari fans, that´s not their target, even when past season was a disaster and by comparison this one is much better, but that´s not the position any Ferrari fan should be happy with.
Schuttelberg wrote: but perhaps you'll look at Fernando and Ferrari in better light once he hangs up his boots. His 'best' time in F1 to date has been in that red car.
..... what? :wtf:

Image
Schuttelberg wrote:Secondly, if you're willing to accept the disaster McLaren Honda is this year, relative to Mercedes and willing to call it a 'long term project,'
No I´m not willing to call it anything, it´s McLaren, Honda and even Alonso who said it BEFORE the start of the season, even before pre-season testing. It´s not an excuse, it´s a description of reality. Nobody, none, nadie ever said this season would bring some success, never. All of them said from the beginning this would be a difficult season
Schuttelberg wrote:you can't be so naive about the Ferrari 'renaissance.' It's not as if Ferrari were comfortably second last year and they're still there this year. They were hammered by the likes of RBR, Williams last year and dare I say that without Alonso, I don't think they would have been where they ended up at the end of the year. What I'm trying to say is that just like you're willing to give McLaren an opportunity to grow as a team, so you have to with Ferrari.
I did. In 2011. Also in 2012. In 2013 too. As in 2014... but it never happened. This season things look promising for Ferrari, but that´s only because of the disastreous past season. By comparison this season is great, but if you look at the season from some distance, Ferrari is still miles away from Mercedes, and only fighting for some spare victory when Mercedes make some mistake. Same as past 5 seasons, nothing new.

Anycase I´m not willing to give an opportunity to any team, I´m only a fan who would love to see my favourite driver fighting for more titles, and independently to this, I´d love to see a championship with some more competition instead of a boring championship like we´re suffering in last 7 seasons in a row. Between Ferrari era and Brawn, there was 4 exciting seasons, since then it´s been terrible. Only Alonso provided some excitement fighting with RBR in 2010 and 2012, all the rest is this last 7 seasons have been boooring
Schuttelberg wrote:Lastly, there's no team with the history or legacy of Ferrari. While that doesn't mean resting on your laurels, it certainly doesn't mean getting belittled for the sake of anyone.
As I said, to me saying Ferrari shouldn´t be proud of a second place is far from belittling. IMHO it´s exactly the other way around. A 2nd place is something to be proud of for teams like Force India, Sauber, STR.... but not for Ferrari. Ferrari is too big to be happy with a second place. Nobody knows that better than Alonso, he´s been second with Ferrari three times in five seasons, so he has first hand experience about how second places are seen inside Maranello. Nobody felt proud then, so nobody should feel proud today, specially when Seb is not even second, but third.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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alexx_88 wrote:The only number Ferrari should be interested in is, imo, the pace difference to first place. It doesn't matter (up to a point) if you have one team in front or two, you still have to improve your package by that amount in order to have a chance.

So, yeah, looking at the Monza FP results, things are not looking much better for Ferrari in their quest to win the championship, compared to 2014. There are still a good few tenths between Mercedes and them, maybe even more than that, depending on how much Lewis' engine was de-tuned after Rosberg's failure.
According to AMuS Merc didn't even activate their Qualifying Mode in Monza after the Problems on Rosbergs Engine (Ferrari had a Qualy mode for the first Time in Monza ? ). They have a LOT still coming.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 60195.html
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Andres125sx wrote: All this discussion started with your comment (yes, you´re the responsible :mrgreen: ) about Alonso saying Ferrari shouldn´t be proud, with some smilies like if he would be mad. I only pointed he has some reasons to say that, but that does not mean I´m criticizing Ferrari, as I said IMO Ferrari is here to win, so only winning is what should make them proud. I think people thinking Ferrari should be proud of fighting for 2nd are not true Ferrari fans, that´s not their target, even when past season was a disaster and by comparison this one is much better, but that´s not the position any Ferrari fan should be happy with.
Okay, I was just a bit taken aback with Fernando's comments and I genuinely wanted some insight. I'm not debating the fact that I brought it up. Like I said earlier, it doesn't make sense to me for him to even cater to that sort of question, specially considering the fact that he has his hands more than full at McLaren. Surely, there are greater things to worry about and spend energy on, than re-harvest bitter feelings.

I used to be an enormous Ferrari fan and I was a bit down about the 2005 season. However, even after the culmination of the 2006 season, I was very proud of them. Being second is not a bad thing. Desire to not win is. To give up, is. In competition losing is more important than winning, because without that ingredient you don't ever know how priceless those moments of triumph are. Just to put it in context, I am quite a hardcore Vettel fan (though I don't believe he's some messiah or far better than the others, but I have a belief that he's slightly better than the rest. Plus, his personality intrigues me and even though he's younger than me, I learn from him) and I would have had no problem if he ended up as runner up in any of the seasons (2010-13). Why? Like I said, for any sportsman, competing is above everything else. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Ok, I don't underestimate his stint at Renault in his championship or comeback years, but I'm a die hard Schumacher fan and I would trade all of those titles from 2000-2004 for the 1997-98 championships. I truly believed, he was the best driver in those years. Like Alonso, in 2012. But, I respect your view that you like his Renault days more. Jeez, those racing overalls still remind me of that beautiful Mild Seven Renault livery.
Andres125sx wrote: No I´m not willing to call it anything, it´s McLaren, Honda and even Alonso who said it BEFORE the start of the season, even before pre-season testing. It´s not an excuse, it´s a description of reality. Nobody, none, nadie ever said this season would bring some success, never. All of them said from the beginning this would be a difficult season
I'm sorry, but it's just that- An excuse. McLaren have a massive budget, two world champions, acclaimed designers and an engine partner that has one of the best infrastructures in the world. They had one year to learn from the others mistakes, but they crafted their own set. It happens. That's F1. I will not in the least be surprised if they make a WCC winning car next year, though it's far fetched. But, McLaren and Honda are capable of pulling it off. Having said that, anticipating failure is no excuse for the failure. I don't think anyone ever expected them to straight away win the titles, but the fact that they are barely fighting with the Saubers smells like a disaster to me.

Just another point, NOBODY at Ferrari said that they were going to win the titles this year. They said they were aiming for a couple of victories and they've got it. You can't have one set of standards for Ferrari and another for McLaren mate. It invalidates your opinion completely as it has biased all over it.
Andres125sx wrote:I did. In 2011. Also in 2012. In 2013 too. As in 2014... but it never happened. This season things look promising for Ferrari, but that´s only because of the disastreous past season. By comparison this season is great, but if you look at the season from some distance, Ferrari is still miles away from Mercedes, and only fighting for some spare victory when Mercedes make some mistake. Same as past 5 seasons, nothing new.
Schumacher waited four years as well before he could taste success. Button at Honda? Teams go through phases. Transition and change is constant. It's upto Alonso to ride it, motivate it and a character like him who's so likeable and talented can even influence it. His only issue seems to be patience. Not at the wheel while calculating a serene pass, but calculating trends and cycles of a teams rise and fall. I will say this to you again, no driver has a birthright to demand a championship winning car. He can only prove himself worthy of one. Alonso falls in the same bracket.

I already summarised for you that Ferrari had a miserable 2014 and were only able to save face because of Alonso. Yes, they are miles from Mercedes and will probably only be second next year. BUT they will continue to aspire to win and one day they will. Only, not with Alonso. Will Alonso win again? Based on his talent? Yes. Will it be with McLaren? May be, but if I had to bet money, I would say he would be sitting in a Mercedes past it's peak when McLaren start winning. It's just how he's been all along in his decision making.
Andres125sx wrote:As I said, to me saying Ferrari shouldn´t be proud of a second place is far from belittling. IMHO it´s exactly the other way around. A 2nd place is something to be proud of for teams like Force India, Sauber, STR.... but not for Ferrari. Ferrari is too big to be happy with a second place. Nobody knows that better than Alonso, he´s been second with Ferrari three times in five seasons, so he has first hand experience about how second places are seen inside Maranello. Nobody felt proud then, so nobody should feel proud today, specially when Seb is not even second, but third.
There are some absolutely great teams in this sport that haven't won for long-

1) Ferrari (pre-Schumacher)
2) McLaren (2000-2007)
3) Williams (1998-present)

That's sport. If only winning bought Ferrari fans pride, they wouldn't turn up in Monza like they do every year. It's about competing. Winning and losing is part of it.

If I were a Ferrari fan, I would be proud as hell that Alonso drove for my team, even if it's pitiful that he's bitter about it.

Vettel is third as you rightly pointed out, but it's been one of his best seasons to date. I think, in this scenario if you're trying to say Rosberg is a credible 2nd, then it's a bit laughable. Common perception is that Vettel and Hamilton have been the best drivers this year.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Schuttelberg wrote:I'm sorry, but it's just that- An excuse. McLaren have a massive budget, two world champions, acclaimed designers and an engine partner that has one of the best infrastructures in the world.
True, but same applies to Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull. And they also have experience with this new technology. You can´t expect a new manufacturer, no matter how big he is, to beat the big teams in his first season when all the rest have same resources and more experience. It´s not an excuse, it´s being realistic

But Ferrari have same resources than Mercedes, and also same experience, so they should be fighting with them. Very different scenarios IMO
Schuttelberg wrote:His only issue seems to be patience. Not at the wheel while calculating a serene pass, but calculating trends and cycles of a teams rise and fall.
May I ask how to calculate that?
Schuttelberg wrote:I will say this to you again, no driver has a birthright to demand a championship winning car. He can only prove himself worthy of one. Alonso falls in the same bracket.
Of course, never tried to say that. But when you´re 34 and have spent 5 seasons on a team without success, it´s time to move on. It´s not a matter of birthright, but age and time remaining in F1.
Schuttelberg wrote: but if I had to bet money, I would say he would be sitting in a Mercedes past it's peak when McLaren start winning. It's just how he's been all along in his decision making.
You´re a bad man :P :mrgreen:
Schuttelberg wrote:There are some absolutely great teams in this sport that haven't won for long-

1) Ferrari (pre-Schumacher)
2) McLaren (2000-2007)
3) Williams (1998-present)

That's sport. If only winning bought Ferrari fans pride, they wouldn't turn up in Monza like they do every year. It's about competing. Winning and losing is part of it.
Fans and Ferrari team are different things. I agree fans may be happy with some seasons even if they didn´t win, but Ferrari team is different, they can´t be proud of a season when they´re 0.5-1 second slower than the champion.
Schuttelberg wrote:If I were a Ferrari fan, I would be proud as hell that Alonso drove for my team, even if it's pitiful that he's bitter about it.
Disagree in this pov. He´s not pitiful. People and journalists are constantly questioning his decision, he didn´t say that to criticize Ferrari, but to explain the reasons to move out of Ferrari are still valid. He´s just defending himself from critics.

Try to see it from Alonso´s POV instead of from Ferrari POV
Schuttelberg wrote:Vettel is third as you rightly pointed out, but it's been one of his best seasons to date. I think, in this scenario if you're trying to say Rosberg is a credible 2nd, then it's a bit laughable. Common perception is that Vettel and Hamilton have been the best drivers this year.
I´d even say Vettel is the best this season, Lewis is doing too many mistakes, specially considering he´s driving the best car and his team mate is not a rival for him.

As you may imagine Vettel has never been my favourite driver, specially since 2010-2013 when he was fighting with Alonso with a faster car, but I must reckon he´s damn good, fast, reliable and his mistakes are almost unexistant. When he was in RBR I thought it was because his car was so fast he didn´t need to push hard, but both Lewis and himself are proving the contrary this season. Hamilton with the fastest car is doing several mistakes, while Seb with a slower car is faultless

But I still think Alonso is the best :mrgreen: :P

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Point taken. Fair discussion.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Image

:D

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Forza Ferrari!! Forza Seb!!
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"