All this discussion started with your comment (yes, you´re the responsible
) about Alonso saying Ferrari shouldn´t be proud, with some smilies like if he would be mad. I only pointed he has some reasons to say that, but that does not mean I´m criticizing Ferrari, as I said IMO Ferrari is here to win, so only winning is what should make them proud. I think people thinking Ferrari should be proud of fighting for 2nd are not true Ferrari fans, that´s not their target, even when past season was a disaster and by comparison this one is much better, but that´s not the position any Ferrari fan should be happy with.
Okay, I was just a bit taken aback with Fernando's comments and I genuinely wanted some insight. I'm not debating the fact that I brought it up. Like I said earlier, it doesn't make sense to me for him to even cater to that sort of question, specially considering the fact that he has his hands more than full at McLaren. Surely, there are greater things to worry about and spend energy on, than re-harvest bitter feelings.
I used to be an enormous Ferrari fan and I was a bit down about the 2005 season. However, even after the culmination of the 2006 season, I was very proud of them. Being second is not a bad thing. Desire to not win is. To give up, is. In competition losing is more important than winning, because without that ingredient you don't ever know how priceless those moments of triumph are. Just to put it in context, I am quite a hardcore Vettel fan (though I don't believe he's some messiah or far better than the others, but I have a belief that he's slightly better than the rest. Plus, his personality intrigues me and even though he's younger than me, I learn from him) and I would have had no problem if he ended up as runner up in any of the seasons (2010-13). Why? Like I said, for any sportsman, competing is above everything else. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Ok, I don't underestimate his stint at Renault in his championship or comeback years, but I'm a die hard Schumacher fan and I would trade all of those titles from 2000-2004 for the 1997-98 championships. I truly believed, he was the best driver in those years. Like Alonso, in 2012. But, I respect your view that you like his Renault days more. Jeez, those racing overalls still remind me of that beautiful Mild Seven Renault livery.
No I´m not willing to call it anything, it´s McLaren, Honda and even Alonso who said it BEFORE the start of the season, even before pre-season testing. It´s not an excuse, it´s a description of reality. Nobody, none, nadie ever said this season would bring some success, never. All of them said from the beginning this would be a difficult season
I'm sorry, but it's just that- An excuse.
McLaren have a massive budget, two world champions
, acclaimed designers and an engine partner that has one of the best infrastructures in the world. They had one year to learn from the others mistakes, but they crafted their own set. It happens. That's F1. I will not in the least be surprised if they make a WCC winning car next year, though it's far fetched. But, McLaren and Honda are capable of pulling it off. Having said that, anticipating failure is no excuse for the failure. I don't think anyone ever expected them to straight away win the titles, but the fact that they are barely fighting with the Saubers smells like a disaster to me.
Just another point, NOBODY
at Ferrari said that they were going to win the titles this year. They said they were aiming for a couple of victories and they've got it. You can't have one set of standards for Ferrari and another for McLaren mate. It invalidates your opinion completely as it has biased all over it.
Andres125sx wrote:I did. In 2011. Also in 2012. In 2013 too. As in 2014... but it never happened. This season things look promising for Ferrari, but that´s only because of the disastreous past season. By comparison this season is great, but if you look at the season from some distance, Ferrari is still miles away from Mercedes, and only fighting for some spare victory when Mercedes make some mistake. Same as past 5 seasons, nothing new.
Schumacher waited four years as well before he could taste success. Button at Honda? Teams go through phases. Transition and change is constant. It's upto Alonso to ride it, motivate it and a character like him who's so likeable and talented can even influence it. His only issue seems to be patience. Not at the wheel while calculating a serene pass, but calculating trends and cycles of a teams rise and fall. I will say this to you again, no driver has a birthright to demand a championship winning car. He can only prove himself worthy of one. Alonso falls in the same bracket.
I already summarised for you that Ferrari had a miserable 2014 and were only able to save face because of Alonso. Yes, they are miles from Mercedes and will probably only be second next year. BUT
they will continue to aspire to win and one day they will. Only, not with Alonso. Will Alonso win again? Based on his talent? Yes. Will it be with McLaren? May be, but if I had to bet money, I would say he would be sitting in a Mercedes past it's peak when McLaren start winning. It's just how he's been all along in his decision making.
Andres125sx wrote:As I said, to me saying Ferrari shouldn´t be proud of a second place is far from belittling. IMHO it´s exactly the other way around. A 2nd place is something to be proud of for teams like Force India, Sauber, STR.... but not for Ferrari. Ferrari is too big to be happy with a second place. Nobody knows that better than Alonso, he´s been second with Ferrari three times in five seasons, so he has first hand experience about how second places are seen inside Maranello. Nobody felt proud then, so nobody should feel proud today, specially when Seb is not even second, but third.
There are some absolutely great teams in this sport that haven't won for long-
1) Ferrari (pre-Schumacher)
2) McLaren (2000-2007)
3) Williams (1998-present)
That's sport. If only winning bought Ferrari fans pride, they wouldn't turn up in Monza like they do every year. It's about competing. Winning and losing is part of it.
If I were a Ferrari fan, I would be proud as hell that Alonso drove for my team, even if it's pitiful that he's bitter about it.
Vettel is third as you rightly pointed out, but it's been one of his best seasons to date. I think, in this scenario if you're trying to say Rosberg is a credible 2nd, then it's a bit laughable. Common perception is that Vettel and Hamilton have been the best drivers this year.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"