Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Phil
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Schuttelberg wrote:The best driver won every year.
I find that angle very hard to justify in what is essentially a team-sport. Think about that for a moment. Team-sport. This isn't tennis. Or any other sport where the individual sans any tools is in a 1 vs 1 battle. F1 is a team-sport and as such, I really can't find it in me to attribute the WDC title on the single premise that he was the best in that year. Irregardless if Lewis won the title, Vettel, Button, Schumacher etc.

Kimi won as a team in 2007 when both Lewis and Alonso lost as a team.

Interesting statistics though; Ferrari enjoyed 9 wins in total that year, vs. McLaren with 8. Lewis and Alonso both shared 4 victories, where as Kimi won 6 races vs 3 for Massa. Arguably, one could say Kimi was better than Massa, where as Lewis and Alonso were nigh on equals and shared more victories with each other than Kimi/Massa. It does also say that both cars were very competitive.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Schuttelberg
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Phil wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:The best driver won every year.
I find that angle very hard to justify in what is essentially a team-sport. Think about that for a moment. Team-sport. This isn't tennis. Or any other sport where the individual sans any tools is in a 1 vs 1 battle. F1 is a team-sport and as such, I really can't find it in me to attribute the WDC title on the single premise that he was the best in that year. Irregardless if Lewis won the title, Vettel, Button, Schumacher etc.

Kimi won as a team in 2007 when both Lewis and Alonso lost as a team.

Interesting statistics though; Ferrari enjoyed 9 wins in total that year, vs. McLaren with 8. Lewis and Alonso both shared 4 victories, where as Kimi won 6 races vs 3 for Massa. Arguably, one could say Kimi was better than Massa, where as Lewis and Alonso were nigh on equals and shared more victories with each other than Kimi/Massa. It does also say that both cars were very competitive.
I completely agree with you. But, the driver is a huge part of that team. In the given year, that driver was able to get the best out of that car and get the team to work at a certain optimum level. Could someone else do it in that moment? Impossible to tell.

I'm not a Raikkonen fan, far from it. But, to call his championship 'lucky' (as mentioned in an earlier post by another member) is really poor form. There's not a doubt in my mind that Alonso and Hamilton drove at an incredible level just like Raikkonen in 2007. But, the better man won. Even more thumbs up to Lewis for it was his first year. But, Kimi was able to keep his nose clean and not get involved in all the political drama. Actually, I feel he's driven better in other years but his quality of shutting up and doing his own thing for me won him the '07 title.

I'd just like to say that when a driver wins from behind in an unexpected way (2007,2010) we put it down to luck. We tend to criticise first and appreciate later or not at all.
When a driver wins after taking a handsome lead (2006,2009) we say 'oh he always had it in the bag.'
When a driver dominates like (2011,2013-15) we say 'oh he has the best car.'

I'm sure it's impossible to please everyone, but I feel it's alright to stop, take a deep breath and once in a while think about the effort that goes into such achievements. It gets taxing to watch sometimes, I can't begin to think what I would be like in the car. I'm not a professional sportsman, yes, but as I say so many times, we're all human. At least for me, I take it a bit personally when someone says that a champion of the sport I love 'got lucky.'
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

ChrisF1
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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I love this notion that the best driver won every year.

What happens if next year a driver takes pole in 19 races, and leads every lap of 19 races but retires from the lead due to a technical problem with 2 corners to go in half of the races.

He'll have been the fastest driver in quali, and the best in the races, but the car would have let him down. How would it make a driver who came 2nd, 3rd, won a few and maybe crashed a couple of times and failed to take a pole the deserving champion?

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Andres125sx
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Schuttelberg wrote:The best driver won every year.
IMHO in F1 this statement is as innacurate as it can be, there´s no other sport where someone who is not the best can win as easily as in F1

2008 is a good example, when Massa almost win the championship. Do you really think he was the best or second best driver in the grid?

ChrisF1
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Andres125sx wrote:2008 is a good example, when Massa almost win the championship. Do you really think he was the best or second best driver in the grid?
This is where the discussion expands beyond being the best DRIVER, to be "the best" - if you are "the best", you'll find a way into that top seat. Alonso is seen by some as the best of the current crop, but he finds himself in terrible cars because he makes poor decisions.

In the same vein, Hamilton pulled a masterstroke that 70% of us probably said was suicide when he joined Mercedes. Also, Vettel may yet prove to have made a good decision (he's had a better debut season with Ferrari than Hamilton did with Merc)

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Vasconia
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Schuttelberg wrote:
The best driver won every year. It is completely your interpretation that when two drivers in the same team are ahead it takes luck to win. It's hard to separate Kimi's second half of the season and Lewis' first half. It's easy to sit in front of a keyboard and 'blabla' about luck. Quite another to become a F1 World Champion.
Really? do you think that, for example, the best driver won in 1997? its hard to say that the best driver wins every year. Another example was in 2012 when a vast majority of drivers/fans/experts claimed that Alonso was the best driver.

To give our opinion in front of the screen is as easy for me as for you mate.

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Andres125sx
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ChrisF1 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:2008 is a good example, when Massa almost win the championship. Do you really think he was the best or second best driver in the grid?
This is where the discussion expands beyond being the best DRIVER, to be "the best" - if you are "the best", you'll find a way into that top seat.
Drivers are not seers and that´s what you´d need to know what car will win next season, specially with huge rule changes wich are so common nowadays

There´s a reason because some drivers who never won a title are seen as one of the greatest of all time, like Giles Villeneuve, while other who won some title will never be considered one of the greatest, like his son Jacques Villeneuve

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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ChrisF1 wrote:I love this notion that the best driver won every year.

What happens if next year a driver takes pole in 19 races, and leads every lap of 19 races but retires from the lead due to a technical problem with 2 corners to go in half of the races.

He'll have been the fastest driver in quali, and the best in the races, but the car would have let him down. How would it make a driver who came 2nd, 3rd, won a few and maybe crashed a couple of times and failed to take a pole the deserving champion?
What you're saying is statistical, not practical.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Vasconia wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
The best driver won every year. It is completely your interpretation that when two drivers in the same team are ahead it takes luck to win. It's hard to separate Kimi's second half of the season and Lewis' first half. It's easy to sit in front of a keyboard and 'blabla' about luck. Quite another to become a F1 World Champion.
Really? do you think that, for example, the best driver won in 1997? its hard to say that the best driver wins every year. Another example was in 2012 when a vast majority of drivers/fans/experts claimed that Alonso was the best driver.

To give our opinion in front of the screen is as easy for me as for you mate.
I accept your point. I might be wrong. Although, I stick by my argument pertaining to the 2007 season. Let's just rephrase it as 90% of the times the best driver wins.

Same for Andres and Chris.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

ChrisF1
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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If I am honest, I think you've disagreed with me because I was critical of a Spaniard, but actually there is much more to it than just getting lucky.

Hamilton could see that Mercedes were putting together a very strong technical team and had been working on new rules. He knew how Brawn got the most out of the 2009 rule changes and bet that his leadership could have the same benefit in 2014. Likewise, he could see Mclaren were struggling with reliability and generally going nowhere, and that Mercedes were going to move away from supplying Mclaren. The Honda was always seen as a risk by everybody.

It doesn't take a genius to say that Hamilton took a calculated gamble.

In the same vein, Alonso could see Ferrari were stagnating and only ever second best. He took a gamble on Mclaren despite their poor record and the unknown of Honda's engine. He was pushed into this move by his own attitude and relationship breakdown with Ferrari.

Schumacher took a gamble with Ferrari, but was confident that he could take the strongest parts of Benetton with him, and it took time but look what he built.

Prost managed to take 1992 off and end up in the best car for 1993. Senna worked his way into the best car for 1994.

The best drivers can see the people behind the scenes moving. The Ross Brawns and Adrian Neweys of this world have a gravity that pulls successful people towards them. The "best" all rounders will be able to take in the whole package - moving staff, technical rule changes, previous success, chance of future success and be able to approach that team and say "Hey, I have won x, and I think together we can win titles, let's do a deal"

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Andres125sx
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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ChrisF1 wrote:If I am honest, I think you've disagreed with me because I was critical of a Spaniard, but actually there is much more to it than just getting lucky.
Obviously, but luck as a great influence and that´s not in driver´s control

Since you seems to think people is biased, just ignore Alonso. What about Hulkemberg? He´s a great driver, but never had the chance to drive for a top team because top teams already have great drivers, so no space for him

It doesn´t matter if X driver think this team is the best if that team does not have a free seat, so there must be many parameters togheter for some driver to get a top seat, it´s not like you picture it, drivers may know what project is promising, but that does not matter if Mercedes have Lewis and don´t need any other top driver

BTW, I´m not sure, but I´d say when Hamilton signed in with Mercedes nobody knew Mercedes would stop suplying McLaren or Honda would return.

BTW2, Not sure about what influence had the project, and what influence had the money, iirc Mercedes offered an amazing amount of money to Lewis

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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I still haven't got a clear understanding of what kind of engine Ferrari used in Austin.

I think I'm correct in saying that they didn't use tokens but is it exactly the same as monza spec? Or were 'reliability' / software changes made?

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Mr. Fahrenheit
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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They appear to be holding back on spending the tokens while they wait to see how the latest round of rule-making pans out.

As posted by ripper in the Ferrari Power Unit thread.

From formulapassion.it:
La specifica di questo propulsore, è quella di Monza, ma come notorio, sono concessi una serie molto ampia di interventi “minori” a scopo di favorire l’affidabilità. In sostanza è quanto nel corso della stagione ha effettuato la Mercedes, prima di spendere in un’unica soluzione , a Monza, i sette gettoni che aveva a disposizione .

Il propulsore adottato qui ad Austin dalla Ferrari, è una versione minuziosamente sviluppata della specifica Monza, con miglioramenti nell’ambito dell’ efficienza, in termini di consumo. E’ importante notare, che sebbene Austin non sia così critica come è stata Sochi sotto questo profilo, resta comunque un tracciato tra i più severi per il consumo di carburante, al pari di Montreal. Una maggiore efficienza, corrisponde ad una minore quantità di carburante imbarcato, a favore ovviamente di un minore peso. Non stiamo ovviamente parlando di grandi numeri, ma come spesso abbiamo scritto, si tratta dell’insieme dei dettagli a fare la differenza su una Formula 1.
Basic translation:

Many minor improvements in the name of reliability. Carefully refined version of Monza-spec delivering better efficiency/fuel-consumption. Upshot is if it drinks less, you carry less. Not talking huge amounts of weight-saving but these details make the difference.

ripper
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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I've read that there were some minor "reliability" changes, mainly for reducing fuel consumption. No big numbers, but any token free improvement is a great step ahead

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ME4ME
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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