Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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djos
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Yeah I'm guessing ghosn told Renault sport to take illien's assistance or their entire F1 program would be binned.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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turbof1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:
turbof1 wrote: So to be concluded.

Edit: Autosport reports indeed it'll be the latter case. So for 2016 atleast, Red Bull will NOT have a separate development path. TJ13 got burned, well atleast partly.

Nah,

TJ13 got the minuscule details wrong.
He got burned, because he got the most important "detail" wrong: Red Bull is NOT going to produce their own engine and/or developments, nor is there going to be a separate development path from Ilmor, nor is there going to be shared IP ;). Be so galantry to admit that please, no need to drag it out further. I did so too about the Renault deal.

I do admit that it's a bit of surprise that Ilmor will now officially be consultant to Renault. That's however not what TJ13 predicted, at all.
#AeroFrodo

Webber2011
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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The bit that confuses me most out of all this, is that almost everyone earlier agreed Red Bull have been up to something in the secret "hanger 9".
I've heard everything from a full engine building facility, Newey's building road cars, right down to the latest "nothing to see here, move along".

I find it hard to believe there's nothing at all going on with so many rumours though.

If, as it appears, it's against the regs for them to do any development on the Renault ICE then what are they up to ?
No one seems to have the answer.

If it's all about energy recovery it must be an awful waste of money, when almost all the experts agree it's the ICE that's the problem.

Is it really possible that they are considering becoming an engine manufacturer in the future ? ? ? ?

hemichromis
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Well i would not be surprised if the regs get changed to accomodate, Bernie did promise red bull good engines.

The regs have just recently been changed to allow 2015 power units next year.

We won't know for sure until next year. It's a shame because i have been waiting for news for a while and i don't think we have yet the full story.

NL_Fer
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Wouldn't the test facility be to test out pu ingegration. Several times Renault pooped out a new spec, which would be more powerfull on their testbench, but on track was pretty useless.

Maybe they want to test the Manufacturers prototype on their own bench, before taking them to the race.

bhall II
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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turbof1 wrote:I do admit that it's a bit of surprise that Ilmor will now officially be consultant to Renault. That's however not what TJ13 predicted, at all.
That doesn't necessarily preclude anything.
Autosport wrote:Ilmor, like other contractors AVL, Mecachrome and Magneti Marelli, will work directly for and under Renault.
AVL and Magneti Marelli work directly for and under Ferrari, too.

One thing is clear: the rebadged Renault power unit is a one-shot deal. If Red Bull is going into 2017 under the auspice that it will either run a so-called client engine that's already been defeated once or a brand new PU from a notoriously fickle (and currently embattled) company like VW, then it suggests the brain trust at Milton Keynes has learned absolutely nothing over the last 12 months.

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turbof1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bhall II wrote:
turbof1 wrote:I do admit that it's a bit of surprise that Ilmor will now officially be consultant to Renault. That's however not what TJ13 predicted, at all.
That doesn't necessarily preclude anything.
Autosport wrote:Ilmor, like other contractors AVL, Mecachrome and Magneti Marelli, will work directly for and under Renault.
AVL and Magneti Marelli work directly for and under Ferrari, too.

One thing is clear: the rebadged Renault power unit is a one-shot deal. If Red Bull is going into 2017 under the auspice that it will either run a so-called client engine that's already been defeated once or a brand new PU from a notoriously fickle (and currently embattled) company like VW, then it suggests the brain trust at Milton Keynes has learned absolutely nothing over the last 12 months.
It does for 2016. I'm not making any predictions for 2017; I believe a great deal will depend on whether the alternative engine deal goes through. Do note they will have to broker a deal in any case for 2017. The deal with Renault is only for 2016. Either they have to broker an extent of the deal, or search somewhere else for a solution.
#AeroFrodo

bhall II
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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You just sorta glazed over that last bit, huh? :lol:

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turbof1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bhall II wrote:You just sorta glazed over that last bit, huh? :lol:
Don't mind if I do. It got tiresome before the announcement and it remains surprisingly tiresome in the wake of it. It almost is like watching Jersey Shore.

I did read it though. If you got the feeling I'm repeating what you said, then that's because I largely agree. I simply want to underline that we know exactly what will happen next year, and it's not what was reported by nutty professor TJ13.
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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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turbof1 wrote: It does for 2016. I'm not making any predictions for 2017; I believe a great deal will depend on whether the alternative engine deal goes through. Do note they will have to broker a deal in any case for 2017. The deal with Renault is only for 2016. Either they have to broker an extent of the deal, or search somewhere else for a solution.
Ilmor are developing Renault engines, the primary motivator being an unhappy Red Bull....and TJ13 was wrong? :lol:

Cmon Turbo....be a bit more gracious :D
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turbof1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:
turbof1 wrote: It does for 2016. I'm not making any predictions for 2017; I believe a great deal will depend on whether the alternative engine deal goes through. Do note they will have to broker a deal in any case for 2017. The deal with Renault is only for 2016. Either they have to broker an extent of the deal, or search somewhere else for a solution.
Ilmor are developing Renault engines, the primary motivator being an unhappy Red Bull....and TJ13 was wrong? :lol:

Cmon Turbo....be a bit more gracious :D
I'm sorry, but you know as well as me that the reported they were building their partly own PU for next year:
http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclus ... -for-2016/
The result is that Renault have agreed to manufacture and supply Red Bull Racing for the near future, the co-designed 12 token upgraded ICE, whilst Red Bull will supply their own ERS components for the F1 power unit.
http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/06/red-bu ... he-puzzle/
However, for descriptive purposes it is the lower part of the ICE, or the block, is for now the component that remains as Renault’s contribution. The Renault engine block will form the core of the RBR PU. Additional components developed by RBR include a new cylinder head, turbo, CE, MGU-K and MGU-H units all of which will then require ‘harmonisation.’
Just because TJ13's scatter shot hit one thing (partly) -Illien will develop the cylinder head, but also for Renault and not only for RB- does not yield any honor-saving measures to TJ13. You want to talk about being gracious? Let's talk about TJ13 being absolutely quiet on the subject all of a sudden, instead of "graciously" admitting he was for the biggest part wrong on the subject. He was very outspoken in the period leading up to this, but now that the official statements speak of mostly the contrary, he's gone radio-silent. Silence often speaks bigger truths then words ;).

I really dislike arguments like "he was only wrong in a few futile details". It's a very weak attempt to try to minimize someone's failure. Sadly, this happens on almost daily basis in politics as well. It's pure mockery. I will not be part of that, so this really is my last post on the matter.
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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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And prior to the Brazilian GP, what is to say this was not the case? Renault need Ilmor too, the Brazilian token debacle is clear as day on that.
Renault are effectively buying into Red Bull's idea, and may have offered some concessions in return. That does not discount the simple fact that Red Bull initiated, planned and funded engine development is happening.

For anything labelled "RBR PU", it will entail Ilmor, who were brought in by Red Bull to develop engines... you discounted this as fantasy a few months ago.
You are getting so tied up in minutiae of calling out TJ that you are missing the crux of what's going on here.

By all means grill TJ13 on the details he's got wrong, but overall...he called it first.

EDIT: What are we going to talk about over the winter if not this!?? :mrgreen:
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NL_Fer
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Redbull is probably betting on a return of aerodynamics as an important performance differentiator in 2017. Hopefully Ilmor will have sorted out the Renault PU, but guess Redbull is trusting the 2017 rules to make up any power deficit, with their superior aerodynamics.

ScottB
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:And prior to the Brazilian GP, what is to say this was not the case? Renault need Ilmor too, the Brazilian token debacle is clear as day on that.
Renault are effectively buying into Red Bull's idea, and may have offered some concessions in return. That does not discount the simple fact that Red Bull initiated, planned and funded engine development is happening.

For anything labelled "RBR PU", it will entail Ilmor, who were brought in by Red Bull to develop engines... you discounted this as fantasy a few months ago.
You are getting so tied up in minutiae of calling out TJ that you are missing the crux of what's going on here.

By all means grill TJ13 on the details he's got wrong, but overall...he called it first.

EDIT: What are we going to talk about over the winter if not this!?? :mrgreen:
TJ13 made a number of predictions that were right:

RBR would get their PU from Renault
They wouldn't be badged as Renaults

Now, he wasn't the only one making that prediction, indeed that Red Bull would have to go back to Renault has been discussed for quite awhile now.

His 'headline grabbing' prediction, if you will, had Red Bull developing their own ERS, would have Ilmor developing parts for the ICE and would see their, and Renault's engines split off down their own development paths.

This, it turns out, was wrong.


I don't think you can dismiss that as getting a few details wrong, RBR effectively developing their own power unit using a bit of the Renault ICE as a basis is a hugely different outcome from Renault developing the engine with assistance from Ilmor for both teams.

As said, had he simply claimed they were going to run the same engine as the new Renault team, his story would have been in line with a number of others. It was the claims he made relating to 'Building 9' that made the story the discussion topic that it became, and it was wrong. That's far from being a few little details out for me!

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ScottB wrote:[
His 'headline grabbing' prediction, if you will, had Red Bull developing their own ERS, would have Ilmor developing parts for the ICE and would see their, and Renault's engines split off down their own development paths.

This, it turns out, was wrong.
Do Red Bull not produce their own ERS?
ScottB wrote:I don't think you can dismiss that as getting a few details wrong, RBR effectively developing their own power unit using a bit of the Renault ICE as a basis is a hugely different outcome from Renault developing the engine with assistance from Ilmor for both teams.

As said, had he simply claimed they were going to run the same engine as the new Renault team, his story would have been in line with a number of others. It was the claims he made relating to 'Building 9' that made the story the discussion topic that it became, and it was wrong. That's far from being a few little details out for me!
As I said previously, in 2016 he maybe wrong....but 2017?
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