Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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WaikeCU
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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George-Jung wrote:I don't understand all the comments about Verstappen, the guy was one of the only drivers who made some impressive overtakes at Monaco this year. Yes he maybe made a mistake with Grosjean, but it could have happen to anybody and has nothing to do with him being just 17 or inexperienced..

Just look at Vettel, when he crashed Button in Spa.. he became a 4 times wdc..
Look at Hamilton crashing Raikkonen in the pitlane in Canada.. he became a 2times wdc and probably soon a 3times wdc..

Verstappen is a real racer, we should all embrace that.
If it wasn't to his bad pitstop, the boy would have scored big time this race..

But bad luck is part of the game.. just look at Hamilton.
^this!

Max hasn't had a perfect weekend this season yet. I think with the Renault PU and Toro Rosso, chances to get a perfect weekend is rare. Despite the mistakes he has made, he continues to impress. We are just waiting for the perfect weekend to come along and he'll then score big I think.

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jericho
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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Schumacher crashed into Senna,
Vettel crashed into Webber (@Torro Rosso)

All the drivers have had these crashes, things happens! Not to many years ago Grosjean had a ban for a race... He should be quiet..

Manoah2u
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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jericho wrote:Schumacher crashed into Senna,
Vettel crashed into Webber (@Torro Rosso)

All the drivers have had these crashes, things happens! Not to many years ago Grosjean had a ban for a race... He should be quiet..
exactly my thoughts.

Grosjean is the last one to speak. I feel like he did brake early, or took a weird line. I don't think that he wasn't entitled to do that though, he's in front and he wants to defend. Hell, he got the message Verstappen was storming in on him fast through the radio. I don't think Grosjean's braking, even if it was a brake test, was the wrong thing to do. Quite frankly, i think it was even a good idea to do to try and keep him behind.

However, Verstappen simply made a judgement error, i'm personally not sure he really was taking over, i personally feel like he was coming in fast and the slow movement of RG made him go for a gap that wasn't there because there was simply no room due to his higher speed.

It's a misjudgement from Max, and it cost Max his race. It was a rookie error. And let's face it; Max is an amazing driver but he's still very much a rookie. He learned from this. His punishment imho was enough by crashing into the barriers and having zero points and a mangled up car. Is the FIA penalty too severe? Perhaps a bit, but, it's the rules and that's just how it is.

If they're smart in canada and they can't get a decent starting position, they'd better hang in a fresh engine in there and take the penalty in addition to the grid penalty from this incident. I have a feeling starting on the grid on either 15 or 20 doesn't really do that much, especially since a lot can happen in the first corner in Canada.

Glad to see Renault has improved their engine though. Or just having a relatively troublesome free weekend.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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iotar__
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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jericho wrote:Schumacher crashed into Senna,
Vettel crashed into Webber (@Torro Rosso)

All the drivers have had these crashes, things happens! Not to many years ago Grosjean had a ban for a race... He should be quiet..
No it's Verstappen that should be quiet, that's the whole point: one thing is messing it up and the other pretending nothing happened and blaming someone else. It wasn't some run of the mill incident either. If they keep teenager who thinks and drivers like that something worse can happen.

"Romain Grosjean didn't brake test Max Verstappen," said Permane. "He braked five metres later than previous lap. Data accepted by the FIA so the penalty was for Max not RG." You can always count on Permane to embrace weirdest accusation by commenting on them. If you answer it like that you're making it a debatable issue. It should be FIA's job to explain it and take care of Verstappen talking/driving. Of course braking later is not the same as brake testing but who cares about details like that.

George-Jung
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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iotar__ wrote:
"Romain Grosjean didn't brake test Max Verstappen," said Permane. "He braked five metres later than previous lap. Data accepted by the FIA so the penalty was for Max not RG." You can always count on Permane to embrace weirdest accusation by commenting on them. If you answer it like that you're making it a debatable issue. It should be FIA's job to explain it and take care of Verstappen talking/driving. Of course braking later is not the same as brake testing but who cares about details like that.
I am not saying that it happend like this, but how about the following:

-would it be possible for Grosjean to lift the throttle lets say 20m early, and therefor brake 5m later than that he did on the previous lap? For example the normal braking point would be 100m from the apex.. But instead of braking at 100m, Grosjean lifts at 115m from the apex.. and started braking at 95m from the apex.

In this situation everybody is telling the truth.. no?
- for Verstappen's point of view Grosjean did slow down early..compared to previous lap.
- for Grosjean's point of view he did brake 5m later..compared to previous lap.

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turbof1
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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would it be possible for Grosjean to lift the throttle lets say 20m early, and therefor brake 5m later than that he did on the previous lap? For example the normal braking point would be 100m from the apex.. But instead of braking at 100m, Grosjean lifts at 115m from the apex.. and started braking at 95m from the apex.
lift and coast, perfectly possible and it has been warned multiple times it could lead to potentional dangerous situations.
#AeroFrodo

miguelalvesreis
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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I thought the rear light would flash whenever they were off throtle

evered7
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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turbof1 wrote:
would it be possible for Grosjean to lift the throttle lets say 20m early, and therefor brake 5m later than that he did on the previous lap? For example the normal braking point would be 100m from the apex.. But instead of braking at 100m, Grosjean lifts at 115m from the apex.. and started braking at 95m from the apex.
lift and coast, perfectly possible and it has been warned multiple times it could lead to potentional dangerous situations.
But the warning light would have been flashing if he lifted the throttle? Is that visible from the footage (if it is still not blocked by FIA) :)

ChrisF1
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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George-Jung wrote:I am not saying that it happend like this, but how about the following:

-would it be possible for Grosjean to lift the throttle lets say 20m early, and therefor brake 5m later than that he did on the previous lap? For example the normal braking point would be 100m from the apex.. But instead of braking at 100m, Grosjean lifts at 115m from the apex.. and started braking at 95m from the apex.
Romain would surely have slammed the brakes on the moment he felt impact - how many metres from the braking point would this have been (Sorry, haven't seen a replay so don't even know if this is relevant)

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turbof1
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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It also doesn't tell us anything about how early he braked the lap before. Just because he hit the brakes 5 metres later, does not mean his braking point the lap before was otherwise spot on. I believe that at that point both Vettel and Verstappen were not near Grosjean. Could be wrong.

All that I know is that Verstappen was completely caught out by how early Grosjean slowed down. In the past we had more misunderstandings between drivers and that hardly ever got punished.
#AeroFrodo

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Vasconia
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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Manoah2u wrote: Glad to see Renault has improved their engine though. Or just having a relatively troublesome free weekend.
Its Monaco you cant check if the engine has improved. The real test will be Canada.

This penalty has all the sense, I remember Schumacher crashing into another driver in Singapur. Michael said that he braked too early but if I am not wrong he got a penalty.

Coherence is important to decide who gets a penalty and who not. If not it can happen which happened with Alonso/Hulkenberg and Daniel/Kimi. Its hard to explain why one received a penalty and the other not.

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turbof1
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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So Romain Grosjean did not lift earlier then the lap before either: https://twitter.com/AlanPermane/status/ ... 7203928065 It still looks very weird for me. Just watching the video and you can't shake the impression Grosjean slowed down much earlier then Max Verstappen.

Which can still be explained in several ways:
-Grosjean lifted and braked even earlier the lap before. At that moment nobody was near him.
-The Toro Rosso has simply much better braking power, allowing it to brake a few dozen metres later.
-Verstappen braked too late.
#AeroFrodo

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AnthonyG
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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I think Grosjean's car hiding the apex is what messes up our interpretation of the situation from the onboards.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

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WaikeCU
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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turbof1 wrote: -The Toro Rosso has simply much better braking power, allowing it to brake a few dozen metres later.
-Verstappen braked too late.
Or Verstappen is just a gutsier driver. Just like Hamilton, he's perhaps also good on braking, because he's exceptionally good at late braking, that's why he makes lots of overtaking during the race.

I don't think the Toro Rosso is an exceptionally well car tbh. I think it's Sainz and Verstappen who are overperforming the car. Perhaps for instance with Verstappen, if the car is bad on top speed, then he's making it up by braking 50m later than everybody else.

Arminho
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Re: Scuderia Toro Rosso 2015

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WaikeCU wrote:
turbof1 wrote: ..... then he's making it up by braking 50m later than everybody else.
There is no way he breaks 50m later, trust me!