Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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bdr529 wrote:
Manoah2u wrote:I never thought GvdG wasn't in his right do demand compensation and act, the manner in which it was handled and he chose to act though was repulsive and shameful, and quite frankly, unsportive and un-F1. I mean, it is F1 we're talking here, the pinnacle of motorsport. It doesn't get much more exclusive and 'glamourous' than F1.
Here we go again with the VdG is "shameful", and "repulsive", that's a new one, usually it's disrespectful.
Sauber had signed 4 drivers and from what I read sometime ago the had even signed Bianchi the weekend of his crash,
that's 4-5 drivers for 2 seats. and in doing so, Sauber put everyone of those drivers in the position to take legal action.
If you don't like the way VdG acted then blame Sauber they signed the contracts they started the ball rolling.

As for the disrespectful VgD here's what he had to say about that day in Australia
"I walked to (team manager) Beat (Zehnder) and he shoved me a race suit and shoes and said 'here'. I dressed in the garage to have the seat fitting, but the pedals were set up for (Marcus) Ericsson. Nothing could be changed.
"They didn't adjust the foam -- nothing. Just two mechanics, as everyone else was sent away. That was very weird, because normally they would be there, working.


I don't know what the team told those guys, but if they are honest, they would acknowledge that they only received their salaries because of our early payment in 2014. And then suddenly we are the enemies, which is of course (expletive)," said van der Garde.
Manoah2u wrote:Could compare it to buying a new car on monthly payment. The client can't pay for the car the price all at once, but he is able to make a big deposit and pay the rest of the car throughout a monthly payment untill the car has been paid off.
The car company will have to give the client a car, and not get paid in full immediately. In the longer haul though, they will recieve more money. It's either no sale, and no money - Or sell, and accept the client's cashflow restrictions but in the end recieve more money.
In this case, the client is Sauber and the seller/car company Sutil.

That seams like a lot of work, how about just not signing 4 drivers for 2 seats in the first place
you seem to still miss the point about Sauber in the need to act to actually keep the team alive. I don't understand how people can completely oversee that if they had kept vdG and Sutil, the entire team had went bankrupt alas Caterham. Who would be a winner then? Only crying about sad, sad, poor vdG, poor Sutil.

Instead, Sauber had to make the tough decision to appoint 2 drivers with far bigger pockets to keep the team alive, thus sacrificing 2 contracted drivers. The world is hard, so be it, they get compensation.

The quote of vdG can be taken with quite a grain of salt since mr. vdG was the one starting the hostile approach towards Sauber, anybody not expecting a bit of cold response would be ignorant and completely living in another dimension. Simply walking into the paddock threatening to shut down the entire team and simply hopping in a seat and driving, you think this behaviour wouldn't get some backfire?

Really, try that when you lose your job and just march in and start working for your former company which had you dismissed with the promise of financial compensation. Yeah, good going, good luck with that.

The fact remains, we've seen thousands and thousands of complaints and media-horny stories about VanderGarde's camp, but there have been zero from Sauber's side. Quite biased just to pick vdG side without actually knowing the other side of the story and all that has been going on behind closed doors.

"There has been a verdict". Sure, does that take away everyhing else? No, but it's quite tunnel-vision to just focus on whatever you want to focus.

Mr vanderGarde comes in at the final moment expecting to get a tailored overall presented to him with a glass of champagne and a warm welcome? IF that's the expectation, then really, people are living in not just another dimension, but a dimension of 20 apart. Seriously. It surprised me Sauber security did not simply deny him entrance.

Sauber knew very well there was no way this puppetgame was going to go like vdG was trying to show, so they did not play along, boohoo mr. VdG.

the final 100-page letter that VdG wrote after the entire saga actually was fixed, done, and passed, was for everyone clear to see. Seriously mental. Like a crazy stalker writing a letter on how he/she feels the world is hurting them. It was absolutely laughable and rediculous.

The prime example of how things can be done reasonably is Sutil. He could lift along with the vdG crazyness and use it to his own benefit. Instead, he does how any self-respecting and sport-respecting non-butthurt gentleman would do; keep it behind closed doors. There is no need to stay silent on whether there has been a contractual breach or some injustice. Shouting it off the roofs and whining against the entire world how the other kids' took your ball is of a whole other level.

Anyway, vdG saga thankfully is in the past and buried. I hope Sauber likewise can put a dot behind the Sutil late payment issues aswell.

For that matter, btw, people seem to forget Sauber has a history of being late with payments. Remember Hulkenberg ? so is it really that big a deal? I don't think so, and it's F1. Really, these guys aren't gonna come short of their money.

I'm for one glad Sauber is doing good. They have a very good driverin Felipe Nasr and he brings a big amount of money to the team, and we finally have a coloured Sauber again. I could care less about Ericsson, but let's just give him a chance, he's still reasonably fresh. Sauber finally has some light on the horizon, and has wringled itself from the back of the field.

I'm curious on what updates may follow and where they'll end up at the WCC standings when this season is over.

Sauber is a historic team by now that has earned its position in F1. Yes, what happened at Sauber did not win any beauty contest, but - let's face it - really, what would WE have done if we have had the same position?

Option 1 : Keep the signed low-performing aging Dutchman that hasn't shown anything yet, paired with an aging German that has little sponsorship and little prospect for action, without enough total bank to finish the season and shut down a facility with atleast 200 men and thus go completely bankrupt and thus get branded as 'Monisha, the woman who destroyed Sauber'

or

Option 2 : Ditch the two low-performing signed drivers and give them financial compensation and help them to get a drive either somewhere else in F1 [Manor] or another racing class, and sign a very potent, energetic driver that can be moulded and paired with your team for atleast 3 years, bringing 10's of millions of dollars from brazil bank money, up your team image, and pair it with another driver that will bring another bag of millions, and is of the same calibre of your contracted 2 grandpa's but still young and with room to grow. And thus keep the team alive and thus tell your 200 employees that they can keep working instead of go home, and accept that you will get branded 'Monisha, the woman who had to face serious court issues to save Sauber'.

Yeah, that's an easy choice.

I don't think anybody expected GvdG to be so furious he wouldnt' take compensation but insisted stepping into a F1 car. Becuase really, that was all that this was about in the end. He admitted it himself from the beginning. 'Beast Mode'. Yeah.

It's really sad that this happened, but it's really good that Sauber has moved on and moved up the ladder quite significantly.
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bdr529
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Manoah2u wrote:[
you seem to still miss the point about Sauber in the need to act to actually keep the team alive. I don't understand how people can completely oversee that if they had kept vdG and Sutil, the entire team had went bankrupt alas Caterham. Who would be a winner then? Only crying about sad, sad, poor vdG, poor Sutil.
I didn't miss any points Sauber signed 4 drivers for 2 seats. That's the only point.

This is what I don't get You stated that VdG has been disrespectful, shameful, and now repulsive for his actions in this mater
Yet you've never once described Sauber, using those words, and they're the ones that took the money, and promised by way of contract that they would drive for the team in 2015 and then reneged

Sauber purposely went and signed 2 extra drivers knowing full well that they were going to screw them over just so they could keep the team afloat.
that said, You would think that Sauber would treat the 2 drivers that they chose to screw over with a little bit more respect considering they just saved your company and all the jobs in that factory, Now I'm not saying that they have to have them over for dinner, but you don't have to shove a race suit at a driver, and then remove all personal from the garage. that's pretty ballsy considering that VdG just paid his salary

I under stand that Sauber were and still are in financial constraints, but that does't give Sauber the right to fraudulently sign those contracts,
Sauber knew what they were doing, they knew that they were going to take money from someone for a race seat that was never going to be open in the first place. Not only that but they did it twice.
I find Sauber's actions in starting this whole mess, then trying to renege on the deal and then stonewalling on repayment or providing adequate compensation in a timely matter, Poor business practice.
or as you like to put it disrespectful, shameful, repulsive

Let me add I could care less about VdG as a driver and whether he is a nut case or not. It's only the business side that I'm looking at, Party A vs. Party B. You could substitute Ferrari and Schumacher or Mclaren and Senna it doesn't matter to me who it is, and why they had to do what they did. You signed those contracts now you have to live up to them in some form.

Slife
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Why is it wrong for vdG to demand a seat ? Technically his contract hadn't been violated until he was unable to race in Australia.

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bdr529
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Slife wrote:Why is it wrong for vdG to demand a seat ? Technically his contract hadn't been violated until he was unable to race in Australia.
Because Manoah2u says so :lol:

Manoah2u
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Slife wrote:Why is it wrong for vdG to demand a seat ? Technically his contract hadn't been violated until he was unable to race in Australia.
it was never wrong to demand a seat but the way it was handled was rediculous and would never work.

Seriously, you pay € 30.000 for a new car, expect to collect it, seller says "sorry buddy, we've sold it to another guy", "we'll compensate you fullest", and you go "hell nah, i want that car", then you go to the guy that paid and bought the car that was supposed to be yours, demand the seller gives you the keys, step in the car, and drive away happily in 'your' car.

that's how rediculous this thing is.

yes it's insane Sauber sold an already sold car to a customer. It's even more insane how vdG then demands the car from the new 'now rightful' owner.

and yes, offcourse Sauber has blame. That i 'attack' or 'critizise' GvdG does noet mean Sauber is without blame. It's obvious they are with blame. I however find it too silly for words that a driver goes crying over that he thinks the team doesn't hand them the towels the way spoiled richkid is accostumed to or feels like he should be treated, dispite the fact richkid has turned a 'legal struggle' in a 'media circus' and just thinks the people he's suing are going to hug and welcome him with open arms.

Sauber handled things wrong.
GdvdG handled things wrong.

it's that simple. GvdG walks away with his pockets filled. Sauber walks away with the team safe for another couple of years. Only some ego's were hurt along the way. Nothing new.
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turbof1
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Seriously, you pay € 30.000 for a new car, expect to collect it, seller says "sorry buddy, we've sold it to another guy", "we'll compensate you fullest", and you go "hell nah, i want that car", then you go to the guy that paid and bought the car that was supposed to be yours, demand the seller gives you the keys, step in the car, and drive away happily in 'your' car.
That's the clausule any standard contract has: if a contract gets terminated without any valid reason taken up in either the contract or the lawbook, compensated must be made. It's your "always opt-out of a contract" option.

And that's where the issue is: Sauber did not compensate vd Garde in 2014. Not compensating him meant that vd Garde still had a valid contract. If he was compensated, vd Garde would not have any legal grounds and would never had won the case in front of the Swiss court. This is the dealer saying "sorry buddy, we've sold it to another guy, we might or we might not compensate you somewhere in the future". Sorry, but nobody right in his mind would accept that.

I fully get that it is not black and white. Sauber needed to get fresh cash fast to survive. It was a certain decision they made, and each decision you make has consequences. Sauber underwent the consequences of its own decision. That's not the fault of vd Garde, who could if he wanted sink Sauber down to the bottom. I think if vd Garde was that heartless as people try to portray him, Sauber would not be on the grid anymore.

Above else, it's the stupidity of the decision to hire new drivers, while leaving the other drivers with no compensation. It's simply asking for trouble, and is illegal. Stupid and illegal, it's not a good mix. I'm not supporting illegal activities, but if you are that desperate to survive: there are much more subtle ways to get hands on money in unclean ways.
#AeroFrodo

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bdr529
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Manoah2u wrote:
and yes, offcourse Sauber has blame. That i 'attack' or 'critizise' GvdG does noet mean Sauber is without blame. It's obvious they are with blame. I however find it too silly for words that a driver goes crying over that he thinks the team doesn't hand them the towels the way spoiled richkid is accostumed to or feels like he should be treated, dispite the fact richkid has turned a 'legal struggle' in a 'media circus' and just thinks the people he's suing are going to hug and welcome him with open arms.
That's what I'm talking about, you can't ever saying anything about JvG with out add some denigrating comment at the end.

Sauber is total 100% to blame for everything that happened, they are total responsible for JvG having to take them to court.
Yes It could have been handled better but that's Sauber's fault, they signed 4 drivers to 2 seats. not JvG
They chose not to give him the seat but still took the money that's not JvG fault

All I'm reading from you is that you believe that if your company is in financial trouble then it's ok to screw people over and a person like JvG can't and shouldn't do anything about it, what your saying is JvG and his backers should have just forgotten about the millions of dollars that they gave Sauber and just walk away without even trying to collect any of that money back. and just hope that Sauber gets back on their feet and they pay some if any of that money back. as not to up set the apple cart.

I can only see this one way, Sauber started this whole mess by signing more drivers then they had seats, thus they are solely responsible for any actions taken against them

R_Redding
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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So.... do you think its fair that Willem Toet is held at home on gardening leave by his contract with Sauber.

If Willem broke his contract .. they'd be in court instantly.

Sauber are keeping Willem away from F1 to make his knowledge less uptodate , and to deprive any other team of his services.

It would be very F1 if Sauber expected to be able to apply contracts in their favor ,whilst breaking ones that arn't.

Rob

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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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turbof1 wrote:And that's where the issue is: Sauber did not compensate vd Garde in 2014. Not compensating him meant that vd Garde still had a valid contract.
This, unfortunately, is speculation. We've argued around 10 pages ago that a seat in F1 carries some weight and is of extraordinary value. VdG issue wasn't money - he was pursuing a career as a F1 driver. And as such, the aim was to get that seat. Given the situation, it wouldn't be surprising if he declined the settlement/compensation that was offered. Maybe it wasn't enough, or maybe, he simply wanted the seat ("not the money or compensation"), as he himself said multiple times right up until the Australian GP. Which is why he went through courts in his quest to fight for the seat he was promised.

Of course at some point, shouting and fighting over a seat that wasn't going to happen, comes to an end and then the question becomes how much of that compensation is on the table. And in his case, thanks to the unique situation and pressure he was able to put on the team when it mattered most, he, I'm sure, received adequate compensation. But we don't know what and if Sauber offered anything in 2014 in regards to the 'terminated contract' or if VdG even was going to ever accept *any* offer (which would have been within his right, for sure), so lets not speculate on it.
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turbof1
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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[quote][This, unfortunately, is speculation. We've argued around 10 pages ago that a seat in F1 carries some weight and is of extraordinary value. VdG issue wasn't money - he was pursuing a career as a F1 driver. And as such, the aim was to get that seat. Given the situation, it wouldn't be surprising if he declined the settlement/compensation that was offered. Maybe it wasn't enough, or maybe, he simply wanted the seat ("not the money or compensation"), as he himself said multiple times right up until the Australian GP. Which is why he went through courts in his quest to fight for the seat he was promised./quote]

Again, payment is always an opt-out clausule. You can terminate any contract at any time, regardless what the wishes are of the other contractee, as long as you respect the clausules that stipulate compensation. In other words: when giving said compensation you can't refuse it. Well you can try, but then the thing goes to court and Sauber simply has to say "the compensation stipulated in the clausules is offered." At that point the judge can't do anything else then demand the receivance of the compensation. That's not speculation, that's European Law. Regardless of what vd Garde wants.

Fact is, Sauber did not even showed up at the Swiss Court. You simply need to connect the dots that Sauber did not compensate vd Garde. Again this is not speculation since if compensation was offered, vd Garde had to accept it, either at the table at Sauber's, or the Swiss court, regardless if vd Garde wanted to keep his seat or not.

If you still doubt it, then think lf this: how likely would it be that a team who signed 4 drivers for 2 seats, in order to get some money in, to be able to pay off the clausules?
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kptaylor
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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I know Manoah2u likes to argue and play devil's advocate, but here it is again in simple terms.

Hey, your neighbors gave me your house since they don't really like you and would prefer someone who can spend money to upgrade the house and thus improve the entire neighborhood. I know you paid for it and haven't been given an opportunity to find a new place to live, but it's a done deal. Enjoy life on the streets since there are no other houses available!

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FW17
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Is there a some law against paying for a drive? or that it cannot be put in a contract saying that the drive is subject to said driver paying xxx amount of money? and the said promised money is brought in as through some other mechanism? Maybe it would be considered a bribe for a position (specially one which requires a licence)?

Bone of contention in VdG case seems to be the pay to be brought in by VdG was not defined in the contract and it was an understanding.

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bdr529
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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R_Redding wrote:So.... do you think its fair that Willem Toet is held at home on gardening leave by his contract with Sauber.

If Willem broke his contract .. they'd be in court instantly.
Sauber are keeping Willem away from F1 to make his knowledge less uptodate , and to deprive any other team of his services.
It would be very F1 if Sauber expected to be able to apply contracts in their favor ,whilst breaking ones that arn't.

Rob
Gardening leave is not the same scenario
Kalternborn told AUTOSPORT: "He is still employed, but he's on gardening leave. It's not a premature termination, it's just ending."
Although Toet has been relived of his duties and told not to report to work anymore, He is still being paid by Sauber.
and will be paid till his contract runs out,

not uncommon in F1.
both Pat Fry,and Nicholas Tombazis were put on leave last year from Ferrari , Mclaren put Doug McKiernan head of aerodynamics on garden leave last November to make way for Peter Prodromou who was put on garden leave by Red Bull in April of last year,
Adrian Newey was on leave back in 96 when he left Williams for Mclaren
All of these men still got paid in full up to the end of their contract, so there is no breach, just a lot of sitting around the house.

Yes I think it's fair, it happens in the "real" world all the time, A friend of mine was put on Vacation leave. He is an institutional stock broker and left his Firm for a competitor, the day he resigned he was put on leave for 2 months before he could join the new firm, he was still paid in full with all benefits.
It's just a way of guarding the company "secrets". You know that going in, so it's no suprise when it happens.

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bdr529
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Phil wrote: This, unfortunately, is speculation. We've argued around 10 pages ago that a seat in F1 carries some weight and is of extraordinary value. VdG issue wasn't money - he was pursuing a career as a F1 driver. And as such, the aim was to get that seat. Given the situation, it wouldn't be surprising if he declined the settlement/compensation that was offered. Maybe it wasn't enough, or maybe, he simply wanted the seat ("not the money or compensation"), as he himself said multiple times right up until the Australian GP. Which is why he went through courts in his quest to fight for the seat he was promised.
I would have to assume the croux in this whole thing is the fact that Sauber to early possession of VdG's 2015 money to help them get though 2014, they used this money to pay off suppliers and employee wages, in doing so they may have started the clock rolling on VdG's 2015 contract, So by the time of the Australian GP, that was not a "promised seat" but one that VdG legally owned, that could be the reason why VdG was in the position to shut down Sauber's operation,
who knows, maybe Sauber had to rent the seat back from VdG for the race?? :idea:

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SteveRacer
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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While I do not feel VDG is worthy of an F1 seat, Sauber "stole" millions from him and others to keep the team alive. VDG and any others that paid for the seat are "right" even if there are only 2 seats available.