Manor Marussia F1 Team 2015

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

You can be cynical and say FI rejected as they want some more money, but even then, at least 2 'big' teams also rejected the proposal, and let's be honest, the £34m split 9 ways isn't going to touch the sides for anybody.
As it stands, nobody can make a claim on the 34m. Bernie can distribute that money as he likes, or even keep it within CVC. Most likely that money will not go 9 ways, but more like 3 ways. And then it'll make a difference.

For the rest I more or less agree, provided Marussia truly came that unprepared to the table. The SWG isn't known for its transparency so I want to keep my doubts around as equal as the possibility Marussia showed up with a very poor plan.

I do have to admit though that running a 2014 car along 2015 ones is not a wise thing to do in the first place. The speed difference with the fastest car would be dangerous. The FIA never thought that through when they suggested that. All things considered, it would have been better if they got the price money in 2016 instead, giving them the time to develop a proper car.
#AeroFrodo

bill shoe
bill shoe
253
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

Yea, Manor was unprepared. They need to come to the table with a solid business plan like Force India where the two principals are in jail for massive debts or going thru multiple bankrupcy processes. :D

Jonnycraig
Jonnycraig
55
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

turbof1 wrote:
You can be cynical and say FI rejected as they want some more money, but even then, at least 2 'big' teams also rejected the proposal, and let's be honest, the £34m split 9 ways isn't going to touch the sides for anybody.
As it stands, nobody can make a claim on the 34m. Bernie can distribute that money as he likes, or even keep it within CVC. Most likely that money will not go 9 ways, but more like 3 ways. And then it'll make a difference.
Fernley says in the following link that they would benefit by £4m - so split 9 ways.:
Bob Fernley wrote:"We haven't voted because it benefits us by £4million. That wasn't the vote. The vote was 'will you allow Marussia to run a 2014 car?'
turbof1 wrote:
For the rest I more or less agree, provided Marussia truly came that unprepared to the table. The SWG isn't known for its transparency so I want to keep my doubts around as equal as the possibility Marussia showed up with a very poor plan.
Fernley says that if the investors provide a proper business plan and proof of funding, Force India at least are open to them being on the grid:
Bob Fernley wrote:The fact that the application came in a single-page letter, with no details on team ownership, funding or the support of the administrator, left Fernley believing there was not enough information to justify backing it.

"We don't want to lose teams, but one of the over-riding conditions was that clearly they had to demonstrate the sustainability of their programme and who was behind it," Fernley told AUTOSPORT.

"So what were the finances? When would they go to a 2015 car?

"It needed a proper presentation and proposal that could be considered.

"I don't make any excuses on this: the onus is on the team applying to persuade the other teams."

When asked if Force India would be open to changing its mind if a proper submission was made, Fernley said: "You would have to be. This process has been closed down, but like everything else in life: if you get turned down once you go back again and do it properly."

Fernley has underlined that Force India did not object to the principle of Marussia returning, only the manner in which the application was made

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117617
Further to this, it appears that the door is open for Manor to start in Bahrain with 2015 cars, provided financial assurances as above are in place.

cossie
cossie
-14
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

Follow the
$$$. FI is in financial problems' and thier reason for the no vote is condescending.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

Jonnycraig wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
You can be cynical and say FI rejected as they want some more money, but even then, at least 2 'big' teams also rejected the proposal, and let's be honest, the £34m split 9 ways isn't going to touch the sides for anybody.
As it stands, nobody can make a claim on the 34m. Bernie can distribute that money as he likes, or even keep it within CVC. Most likely that money will not go 9 ways, but more like 3 ways. And then it'll make a difference.
Fernley says in the following link that they would benefit by £4m - so split 9 ways.:
Bob Fernley wrote:"We haven't voted because it benefits us by £4million. That wasn't the vote. The vote was 'will you allow Marussia to run a 2014 car?'
turbof1 wrote:
For the rest I more or less agree, provided Marussia truly came that unprepared to the table. The SWG isn't known for its transparency so I want to keep my doubts around as equal as the possibility Marussia showed up with a very poor plan.
Fernley says that if the investors provide a proper business plan and proof of funding, Force India at least are open to them being on the grid:
Bob Fernley wrote:The fact that the application came in a single-page letter, with no details on team ownership, funding or the support of the administrator, left Fernley believing there was not enough information to justify backing it.

"We don't want to lose teams, but one of the over-riding conditions was that clearly they had to demonstrate the sustainability of their programme and who was behind it," Fernley told AUTOSPORT.

"So what were the finances? When would they go to a 2015 car?

"It needed a proper presentation and proposal that could be considered.

"I don't make any excuses on this: the onus is on the team applying to persuade the other teams."

When asked if Force India would be open to changing its mind if a proper submission was made, Fernley said: "You would have to be. This process has been closed down, but like everything else in life: if you get turned down once you go back again and do it properly."

Fernley has underlined that Force India did not object to the principle of Marussia returning, only the manner in which the application was made

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117617
Further to this, it appears that the door is open for Manor to start in Bahrain with 2015 cars, provided financial assurances as above are in place.
If they don't have a good plan now, chances are very slim at best they'll have a good plan further down the road, and even more slimmer to have an actual 2015 car ready for Bahrain. Maybe the 2014 chassis is adaptable and once done, acceptable as a 2015 chassis. Still requires a big investment.

However, they will receive the price money if they show up in Bahrain, in other words everybody will have to wait until a fifth into the season for their 4 million. Sounds all very useless to me. They should have distributed it across the 3 smallest teams atleast. 4 million isn't going to make any big difference.

I also want to underline I doubt Fernley is in anyway interested in a good plan for Marussia. As you self said, this is a sport of self interest, being it whether declining Ferrari another team or getting the 4 million.
#AeroFrodo

skoop
skoop
15
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:46 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

maybe they just haven't had the time to put a proper business plan together? how many days were between paying the entry fee and the meeting? 2? not a lot of time if you're working like hell to sort out a deal

Jonnycraig
Jonnycraig
55
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

turbof1 wrote: If they don't have a good plan now, chances are very slim at best they'll have a good plan further down the road, and even more slimmer to have an actual 2015 car ready for Bahrain. Maybe the 2014 chassis is adaptable and once done, acceptable as a 2015 chassis. Still requires a big investment.

However, they will receive the price money if they show up in Bahrain, in other words everybody will have to wait until a fifth into the season for their 4 million. Sounds all very useless to me. They should have distributed it across the 3 smallest teams atleast. 4 million isn't going to make any big difference.

I also want to underline I doubt Fernley is in anyway interested in a good plan for Marussia. As you self said, this is a sport of self interest, being it whether declining Ferrari another team or getting the 4 million.
At least with Bahrain, they have 10 weeks to get a 2015 car cobbled together & crashtested. Let's be honest, there's 9 other platforms out there now wth plenty of ideas to incorporate, and 10 weeks ago, the 2014 season was just finishing so theoretically no reason why they couldn't get it done.

Realistically of course, if they're not in a position to get a 2015 car knocked up in 10 weeks, they're really not in a position to be racing in 6 weeks, even with the old cars and as you say, equally likely they're going to be unable to satisfy the paddock of thrir credentials.

Personally as said though I'm in agreement with them that without a full and clear business plan and funding there is no way the group should get access to the prize money, and a place on the grid.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

skoop wrote:maybe they just haven't had the time to put a proper business plan together? how many days were between paying the entry fee and the meeting? 2? not a lot of time if you're working like hell to sort out a deal
Seems things are coming together and confidentially clauses are in place that prevents a proper plan to be presented at this time, though the key players in the rescue deal have met with F1 bodies privately -
http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/02/06/lowd ... 2015-grid/

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

Jonnycraig wrote:
turbof1 wrote: If they don't have a good plan now, chances are very slim at best they'll have a good plan further down the road, and even more slimmer to have an actual 2015 car ready for Bahrain. Maybe the 2014 chassis is adaptable and once done, acceptable as a 2015 chassis. Still requires a big investment.

However, they will receive the price money if they show up in Bahrain, in other words everybody will have to wait until a fifth into the season for their 4 million. Sounds all very useless to me. They should have distributed it across the 3 smallest teams atleast. 4 million isn't going to make any big difference.

I also want to underline I doubt Fernley is in anyway interested in a good plan for Marussia. As you self said, this is a sport of self interest, being it whether declining Ferrari another team or getting the 4 million.
At least with Bahrain, they have 10 weeks to get a 2015 car cobbled together & crashtested. Let's be honest, there's 9 other platforms out there now wth plenty of ideas to incorporate, and 10 weeks ago, the 2014 season was just finishing so theoretically no reason why they couldn't get it done.

Realistically of course, if they're not in a position to get a 2015 car knocked up in 10 weeks, they're really not in a position to be racing in 6 weeks, even with the old cars and as you say, equally likely they're going to be unable to satisfy the paddock of thrir credentials.

Personally as said though I'm in agreement with them that without a full and clear business plan and funding there is no way the group should get access to the prize money, and a place on the grid.
The issue is producing a car which normally takes close to 10 weeks on its own. Producing the molds and baking the carbon fibre layers is a very delicate process. Couple to that they need to find new suppliers (because the old ones will not deliver until the debt has been paid), and sufficient funding to pay the supplies up front because not one supplier will want to delivery without enough assurances, as in inmediately paid.

Also you can't just take a look at the competition and slap that on your car. You'd need cfd and windtunnel analysis, something that takes months to optimise. In short there are only 2 options: either producing the windtunnel model to the actual prototype, or a car to as close to the 2014 one as possible.

Producing a new car in this small timeframe is too unlikely. A customer chassis like Dalara is probably the only way, provided the chassis is similar enough to the 2014 chassis to fit all the 2014 parts. Producing new parts is too costly and takes too long. Either way, Dalara will also want to be paid before producing anything.

The best shot is adapting the 2014 chassis, but again that too is difficult. Racing the old 2014 chassis would have required to find suppliers to produce spare parts. That would have been challenging, but realistically a possibility.

But again, after more consideration, running a 2014 car between much faster 2015 ones is not save.
#AeroFrodo

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
14
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:16 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

Looks like theres some good news from Manor! Don't know how to link the tweet sorry!

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117622

It also now seems they did not actually made an application yesterday. The whole deal of the SWG just sprung on them apperently. Maybe they just didn't have enough time to preparse themself well enough to defend their case?

It sounds a lot more realistic anyhow. They are currently modifying their 2014 chassis and are preparing a 2015 one to supersede the 2014 one once ready. It sounds a lot more positive infact and atleast gives the impression they have the fundings covered for the next few months. That's the impression they are giving atleast.

This is their full statement:
MANOR F1 TEAM OUTLINES PROCESS INVOLVED IN GETTING TO THE 2015 GRID

6 February 2015

Following the initiation of the CVA process by Marussia F1 Team administrators FRP Advisory earlier this week, and the confidence this step brings to the process of saving Marussia, the team is now pleased to be able to confirm some of the detail of this process.

- On 17 December 2014, the team made a request to the Strategy Group to consider allowing it to use a 2014 race car, modified to meet certain 2015 regulations, for part of the 2015 season. Following analysis, the team highlighted that this would need some form of dispensation on only a small number of clauses in the Regulations.

- Subsequent to this application, the team was informed on 5 January 2015, that the Strategy Group felt that two teams - Marussia and Caterham - should be permitted to race a 2014 car in the 2015 championship. The letter stated that the Strategy Group agreed that the car should comply with all of the 2015 technical regulations, with the exception of four articles, those articles being Articles 3.7.9, 15.4.3, 15.4.4 and 16.2. The team can confirm that the modifications to its 2014 car would meet this stipulation.

- A change to the Regulations at this stage does require unanimous consent from all teams and following the initiation of the CVA process, the team is now actively engaged in achieving this. This process involves providing all relevant information to the teams to allow them to fully consider its request.

- As the press release from FRP Advisory of 4 February states, given the confidential nature of the negotiations underway, neither they nor the team are able to provide further details regarding the team’s new investors, however those investors have either met with or spoken to the key F1 bodies.

- The team has been busy preparing its 2014 cars such that they comply with the stipulations of the Strategy Group and at the same time it is pressing on with the development of its 2015 car to ensure it can supersede the 2014 car as soon as possible.

- The team has a significant number of staff already working on both its 2014 and 2015 cars. It also has the benefit of being able to recruit further staff very quickly from the rich pool of experienced and talented F1 personnel who were left unemployed following the closure of Marussia and Caterham and due to job cuts made by other teams in the sport.

Commenting on the team’s progress, and also comments emerging from yesterday’s F1 Strategy Group meeting in Paris, Graeme Lowdon, a representative of the team, said:

“It has been a very good step to finally get the CVA process underway this week. This is the first external sign that we have been able to make of all the hard work that has taken place privately over the past four months to get us to our current position.

“I was surprised to hear some of the comments made today, particularly regarding an application we were said to have made to yesterday’s meeting, which I can confirm was not the case. We did make a request on 17 December last year and we have been working since to satisfy the requirements subsequently communicated to us, specifically complying with all the Regulations, aside from the exempted articles.

“The comments also mentioned that issues of compliance were raised, that it was felt that our application lacked substance and contained no supporting documentation to reinforce the case for offering special dispensation. Again, we did not make any application to yesterday’s Strategy Group meeting and nor were we asked to.

“Instead, we are proceeding with our clear process regarding compliance and building our operation. We are doing everything possible to adhere to the process set out for us to return to the 2015 grid. This is a fantastic good news story for the whole sport and we just want to go racing.”
#AeroFrodo

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
14
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:16 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

Bob Fernley wrote:
The fact that the application came in a single-page letter, with no details on team ownership, funding or the support of the administrator, left Fernley believing there was not enough information to justify backing it.
The thing I find interesting here is that any acceptance/rejections shouldn't be made based on Fernley not knowing the above info. I very much doubt that Force India would go into a meeting and openly discuss their funding plans with every other team.

It's akin to a school boy not letting his friend play football with him because he won't tell him what someone said about him.

Marussia is an established (4 years now?) team with new investors. Did Force India have to go through a working group to say we have a new investor in Sahara? No they did not. The only questions about Marussia should've been, can they use a 2014 car (legal to the rules or not)? And do they plan on having a legal 2015 car on the grid at any point in the season?

What next for this team, "They've missed the first 3 races to take an engine off each driver"?
Anything about the investors/owners/finances should be down to Bernie/CVC & FIA to agree, not Fernley because they turned up a single piece of paper!

User avatar
dobbster71
9
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:55 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

I find this article from the BBC quite interesting:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/31169562

Fernley's comments about the FI 2015 car being delayed, with one of the reasons being:
The collapse of the Marussia and Caterham teams had "hurt the suppliers and they can't afford to give us the credit terms we've had in the past".

The supposition here is that suppliers want paying up-front or COD. Teams with healthy cash-flow would have no problem with this arrangement. FI obviously has a problem with this, as Fernley has admitted to.

So, receipt of an extra £4m would be very nice indeed. Without it, maybe there will be no 2015 FI car!
What would happen if FI asked to field their 2014 car at the first race????
WRC is for boys. Group B was for men!
Juha Kankkunen

Raleigh
Raleigh
75
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:36 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

What exactly would need to be done to make the 2014 Marussia compliant with 2015 regs?

I know the nose will need to be changed, and they are going to have to adapt the car for a 2015 powerplant (messy but can be done), but anything else needed?

User avatar
McG
4
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: Manor F1 Team 2015

Post

It's refreshing to see that there aren't many posts on here about the Manor situation. There's a certain site I visit that has at least 100 posts whenever the subject is headlined, full of people trying to "support" the underdog. Also a lot of conspiracy theories which wouldn't come around if people would just read and identify the facts.

Personally I don't care if they make it or not. I don't care for them when they are at their strongest, I certainly don't care when they are trying to worm their way back into F1 with some leftover scraps.

Only thing that's bad from them failing is that the grid will be slightly smaller, which I would rather see than those 2 cars getting lapped 3 times per race. Same goes for the green cars.

Now I wouldn't like to see Force India or Sauber getting into this situation as they have proved to be decent teams sometimes. But if they do end up not getting results consistently for years and years then I think they shouldn't ask for favours.
Honda, the power of giving up.