2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Post Reply
bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

dans79 wrote:Over the last several years, teams have have adopted methodologies that are increasingly more sensitive to the wake of the car in-front of them.
It's not necessarily a recent phenomenon. These (wiiiide) cars (with wiiiide rear tires) from 1991 overtook one another less frequently than this year's cars.

Image

If we go by Mercedes' claim that 45.1% of overtaking in 2011 was due to DRS, it was apparently more difficult for cars to pass one another in 1991 - 30.94 overtakes per GP - than it was for cars from 2011 to do so without DRS - roughly 33 per GP (with the caveat that 2011 featured Pirellotteri tires, but I don't know how to parse Pirellotteri overtakes).

Ultimately, overtaking is concerned with neither downforce nor mechanical grip individually; it's about total performance differentiation. The kind of performance differentiation required for semi-routine (?) overtaking on circuits that have but a single racing line - 1s to 1.5s - is also the kind of performance differentiation that results in processions, because cars capable of such overtaking inevitably begin races well ahead of the cars they can overtake. The mechanics of turbulence and tire degradation are both subservient to this reality, and trying to overcome it is the Sisyphean job I referenced earlier.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

no matter how "clean" the car is, it's always going to leave turbulent air behind it.

What has happened, is that the teams have adopted things like high aspect ratios, substantial turbulence generators, and profiles that stall at given air speeds, or when the airflow is at some angle etc. Basically, the aerodynamic operating envelope of the cars have gotten smaller and smaller over the years, and this leads to them not being able to follow closely anymore.

More mechanical grip will help, but only for so long. What needs to happen, is a serious revamp of the aerodynamic rules. The aro rules are incredibly open compared to the chassis and engine. The rules need to be changed with an eye on guaranteeing they have minimal negative effects from turbulent air flow.

The aero is so sensitive now, that crosswinds and tail winds have even started to become a problem.
197 104 103 7

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Would this be a good time to bring in circuit performance?

Massive run offs, with huge margin for error. The 2 corners of recent tracks I love, is Turkey's turn 8/9/10 complex, and China's turn 1. Out of a total of 11 odd tracks... that's ridiculous.

Tilkedromes....Down with those syndromes.

We have to factor in that the track plays a massive part in where, how and when these cars can overtake.
JET set

bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

dans79 wrote:no matter how "clean" the car is, it's always going to leave turbulent air behind it.

What has happened, is that the teams have adopted things like high aspect ratios, substantial turbulence generators, and profiles that stall at given air speeds, or when the airflow is at some angle etc. Basically, the aerodynamic operating envelope of the cars have gotten smaller and smaller over the years, and this leads to them not being able to follow closely anymore.

More mechanical grip will help, but only for so long. What needs to happen, is a serious revamp of the aerodynamic rules. The aro rules are incredibly open compared to the chassis and engine. The rules need to be changed with an eye on guaranteeing they have minimal negative effects from turbulent air flow.

The aero is so sensitive now, that crosswinds and tail winds have even started to become a problem.
For the most part, I agree with the factors you and others have listed. What I'm trying to say is that it's all irrelevant.

If it's about aero, this shouldn't be possible.

Overtaking in 2008: ~14.5 per GP
Image
Overtaking in 1996: ~14.5 per GP

If it's about mechanical grip, this shouldn't be possible.

Non-DRS overtaking in 2011: ~33 per GP
Image
Overtaking in 1991: ~31 per GP

Image
Ultimately, overtaking is concerned with neither downforce nor mechanical grip individually; it's about total performance differentiation. The kind of performance differentiation required for semi-routine (?) overtaking on circuits that have but a single racing line - 1s to 1.5s - is also the kind of performance differentiation that results in processions, because cars capable of such overtaking inevitably begin races well ahead of the cars they can overtake. The mechanics of turbulence and tire degradation are both subservient to this reality, and trying to overcome it is the Sisyphean job I referenced earlier.
FoxHound wrote:Would this be a good time to bring in circuit performance?
Though I agree with you that circuits could (and should) be made better, Ciro put together a fantastic post about how it's virtually impossible to accommodate a second viable racing line.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

I'm not sure how to take this, as it could be read so many different ways.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122297

"But it's early days to discuss that [Rosberg's contract]. I want to see how the season pans out.

"There are areas we want to develop altogether as a team, and let's see how that goes."
197 104 103 7

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

It is the team principal's policy not to discuss driver contracts, so Toto is just throwing fodder at he journalists. He won't say anything concrete until the actual time.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:It is the team principal's policy not to discuss driver contracts, so Toto is just throwing fodder at he journalists. He won't say anything concrete until the actual time.
He didn't do that with Hamilton in 2014, he made it very clear to anyone that would listen that the team wanted to retain Lewis, and that the contract talks where on hold until the battle between he and Nico was done for the year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116536
197 104 103 7

ScottB
4
Joined: 17 Mar 2012, 14:45

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

I don't think it strange that Toto may want to suggest their could be a Merc seat going spare in 2017:

• They will see who out there that may be interested, which, let's be honest, is basically everyone bar Vettel, but it would also make it harder for rival teams to tie up targets, whose heads may be turned by the possibility of getting a Mercedes drive.

• It somewhat weakens Nico's hand when negotiating a new contract. Just because the team is doing well doesn't mean they would object to preventing Rosberg asking for a big salary hike.


He wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't explore possible alternatives to extending Rosberg's contract. Having two drivers in their 30s isn't going to be viable in the longterm, wouldn't surprise me if there will be some in the team keen to try and snap up a youngster, Vertsappen or Wehrlein if they really believe in him / he gets a Manor drive and does very well etc.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

dans79 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:It is the team principal's policy not to discuss driver contracts, so Toto is just throwing fodder at he journalists. He won't say anything concrete until the actual time.
He didn't do that with Hamilton in 2014, he made it very clear to anyone that would listen that the team wanted to retain Lewis, and that the contract talks where on hold until the battle between he and Nico was done for the year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116536
OK, he expressed his desires to continue with them "beyond 2015" but notice he didn't discuss any details. For letting a driver go, I don't think he will discuss that openly and from so early either. Let us see how he handles the Rosberg situation next year.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

User avatar
bdr529
59
Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 19:49
Location: Canada

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Hamilton reveals he is dyslexic, wants to build schools for kids

A friend sent me this yesterday, as a dyslexic myself, he thought I'd get a kick out of it
http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/f1 ... ols-122115

User avatar
adrianjordan
24
Joined: 28 Feb 2010, 11:34
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

bdr529 wrote:Hamilton reveals he is dyslexic, wants to build schools for kids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KC_rd7-bf0
A friend sent me this yesterday, as a dyslexic myself, he thought I'd get a kick out of it
http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/f1 ... ols-122115
All the more respect for him then as it's entirely possible that he finds multi-tasking that much harder than other drivers as a result.
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

ScottB
4
Joined: 17 Mar 2012, 14:45

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

adrianjordan wrote:
bdr529 wrote:Hamilton reveals he is dyslexic, wants to build schools for kids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KC_rd7-bf0
A friend sent me this yesterday, as a dyslexic myself, he thought I'd get a kick out of it
http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/f1 ... ols-122115
All the more respect for him then as it's entirely possible that he finds multi-tasking that much harder than other drivers as a result.
It's a very broad spectrum, so while that's possibly true, many dyslexic people excell at lateral thinking and problem solving, so while his dyslexia could impact him in some ways, it could well be a strength in others!

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

I have dislexya it often leaves me doing things backwards if I'm careless. I've found that I have to go over things in an OCD like fashion to ensure I don't mess up(ironically my biggest fear). This is tiring compared to someone that doesn't have this dysfunction and can analyze things fluidly without getting hung up on details.
Saishū kōnā

User avatar
pob
12
Joined: 04 Jul 2010, 05:00

Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Not many people know that he nearly lost his McLaren backing because of struggling at school (IIRC, passing his Maths GCSE was one of the conditions).


Post Reply