I find the notion of "overtaking" very misleading. I don't want overtaking per se. You don't want overtaking per se. Nobody really wants overtaking per se (except the ones in charge who thinks everybody else wants it so it correlates to how succesful and profitable the series is). What we want is that drivers fight for positions which might or might not lead to overtaking. Not the same thing.bhall II wrote:For the most part, I agree with the factors you and others have listed. What I'm trying to say is that it's all irrelevant.dans79 wrote:no matter how "clean" the car is, it's always going to leave turbulent air behind it.
What has happened, is that the teams have adopted things like high aspect ratios, substantial turbulence generators, and profiles that stall at given air speeds, or when the airflow is at some angle etc. Basically, the aerodynamic operating envelope of the cars have gotten smaller and smaller over the years, and this leads to them not being able to follow closely anymore.
More mechanical grip will help, but only for so long. What needs to happen, is a serious revamp of the aerodynamic rules. The aro rules are incredibly open compared to the chassis and engine. The rules need to be changed with an eye on guaranteeing they have minimal negative effects from turbulent air flow.
The aero is so sensitive now, that crosswinds and tail winds have even started to become a problem.
If it's about aero, this shouldn't be possible.
Overtaking in 2008: ~14.5 per GP
http://i.imgur.com/75h6SGv.jpg
Overtaking in 1996: ~14.5 per GP
If it's about mechanical grip, this shouldn't be possible.
Non-DRS overtaking in 2011: ~33 per GP
http://i.imgur.com/437oR3p.jpg
Overtaking in 1991: ~31 per GP
http://i.imgur.com/Zian2jA.gifUltimately, overtaking is concerned with neither downforce nor mechanical grip individually; it's about total performance differentiation. The kind of performance differentiation required for semi-routine (?) overtaking on circuits that have but a single racing line - 1s to 1.5s - is also the kind of performance differentiation that results in processions, because cars capable of such overtaking inevitably begin races well ahead of the cars they can overtake. The mechanics of turbulence and tire degradation are both subservient to this reality, and trying to overcome it is the Sisyphean job I referenced earlier.Though I agree with you that circuits could (and should) be made better, Ciro put together a fantastic post about how it's virtually impossible to accommodate a second viable racing line.FoxHound wrote:Would this be a good time to bring in circuit performance?
For instance I can very much understand why in 1991 (and possibly in 1996 too, not quite sure) overtaking was as difficult: you had broader axle track which you could use the car better to hinder someone from behind. However, the car from behind was able to race closer, much closer probably. You might have less overtaking, but I can assure you, even with not having a single search for numbers or anything otherwise, that you'd have much more battles for position which simply did not ended up with swapping positions. That's not overtaking, but at at the same time everybody got what they wanted: tension through the fight for position.
Basically, you will face from 2017 even less overtaking (except if they really go crazy with DRS). It'll depend on how the ratio between mechanical and aerodynamical grip shifts if we are actually going to get more fights for positions.
. It's based solely on reasoning, and I'm not bothered looking for statistics at the moment, but I'm fairly sure what I say corresponds with the reality in 1991. Cars should atleast have been able to follow eachother more closely then today. Overtaking is a different thing.
