2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
Thunder
Moderator
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:50 am
Location: Germany

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

I wonder if Geox will stay now that they have signed with Puma.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

User avatar
FoxHound
218
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

JET set

Joseki
Joseki
56
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:30 pm

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

The best thing is how Stoffel and Lowdon smile and nod.

User avatar
FoxHound
218
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-294929.html

Marko hopes Red Bull 'martyrdom' helps F1

But Wolf is having none of it....
Mercedes' Toto Wolff, however, rejected the theory that Red Bull was left high and dry by the carmakers.

Red Bull has an engine, a Renault, so what are we talking about? Ferrari and Mercedes did not help out for various reasons, but it was not as though they (Red Bull) were forced out of F1. They just couldn't get the engine they wanted.
No one is afraid of anything, but we want to compete with the same conditions. Red Bull can use its budget mainly for chassis development, believing they also have the right to the best engine.

"That is not our philosophy," he insisted. "The second aspect is how to deal with your partner when you're in trouble."
I think these are the main issues surrounding the whole situation.
Wolff sums it up succinctly.

Red Bull have an engine. They just couldn't get the one they wanted and wrought an almighty sh*tstorm.

But what is most interesting about this, is the Red Bull modus operandi is a built in budget advantage over the manufacturers.
Red Bull had a budget of circa 400 million in 2015. Mercedes were not far off this including engines.

So it stands to reason that Red Bull would have a far greater like-for-like budget than Mercedes or any of their competitors meaning more money spent on Chassis and Aero, when the PU costs are circa 5% of your overall budget. Whereas Mercedes/Ferrari would be spending a great deal more on their engines as a percentage of their team budget.
JET set

User avatar
FoxHound
218
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

Joseki wrote:
The best thing is how Stoffel and Lowdon smile and nod.
The video has disappeared!

I'm guessing Will Buxton is in the Red Bull bad books now :lol:
JET set

User avatar
djos
168
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

This article just reinforces my contention that Marko is the one responsible for the belligerent approach by RedBull to the whole engine drama.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

FoxHound wrote:http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-294929.html

Marko hopes Red Bull 'martyrdom' helps F1

But Wolf is having none of it....
Mercedes' Toto Wolff, however, rejected the theory that Red Bull was left high and dry by the carmakers.

Red Bull has an engine, a Renault, so what are we talking about? Ferrari and Mercedes did not help out for various reasons, but it was not as though they (Red Bull) were forced out of F1. They just couldn't get the engine they wanted.
No one is afraid of anything, but we want to compete with the same conditions. Red Bull can use its budget mainly for chassis development, believing they also have the right to the best engine.

"That is not our philosophy," he insisted. "The second aspect is how to deal with your partner when you're in trouble."
I think these are the main issues surrounding the whole situation.
Wolff sums it up succinctly.

Red Bull have an engine. They just couldn't get the one they wanted and wrought an almighty sh*tstorm.

But what is most interesting about this, is the Red Bull modus operandi is a built in budget advantage over the manufacturers.
Red Bull had a budget of circa 400 million in 2015. Mercedes were not far off this including engines.

So it stands to reason that Red Bull would have a far greater like-for-like budget than Mercedes or any of their competitors meaning more money spent on Chassis and Aero, when the PU costs are circa 5% of your overall budget. Whereas Mercedes/Ferrari would be spending a great deal more on their engines as a percentage of their team budget.
In all fairness, Red Bull took their rise to the top and almost all of their existing years (as constructor) in F1 during the engine freeze, when engine/PU investment mattered very little and when you just had to design a good chassis and aero.

Not that I'm against engine development (far from it actually), and Red Bull should have acted more carefully and more realistically, but I think the situation they are in is due inexperience. Any entity is formed and grown by the experiences it has throughout the timeline. Red Bull did not have that experience. McLaren on the other hand has, as evident that they correctly judged back in 2013 the situation that was coming to them in 2014, and attracted Honda.

In all fairness also, Red Bull did have an exclusive partnership alike McLaren has with Honda. Both Renault and Red Bull judged the partnership incorrectly though. Budgets also do no tell the whole story I think. If you are going to look at Honda and McLaren, you will probably see very similar numbers. Not that those are anywhere closer to Mercedes or Ferrari, but being competitive in the current format means it begins at a supplier for whoem it is in its best interests to look out for your bests interests.

I do stand and will keep standing at my previous point: Red Bull is not an engine manufacturer. That's not in their nature. They are good at building a chassis and aero, but having no experience in ICE design and very bad experiences in hybrid tech, they are reliant on being supplied. What Red Bull should do, and very probably is looking to do, is attract a strong manufacturer. VW would have been their first choice, but that's not going to happen soon since those are even downscaling now their Le Mans activities. Ilmor is I believe great for consultancy and development work, but I don't think big enough and capital-wise strong enough to take on the task on their own. Perhaps Toyota if they can convince them? Although those have gotten the name to be very, very rigid and overall just a slow bureaucratic decisionmaking structure. Maybe if F1 wins more American hearts that Ford or GM could step in.

Either way, Red Bull will have learned from it. They were I think both arrogant and ignorant when they were demanding an equal PU from their competitors. It's a good lesson they took.
#AeroFrodo

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
149
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:51 am

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

I would love to know what definition of Martyrdom Marko is operating off of, because it appears to be unrelated to any classical definition.

User avatar
FoxHound
218
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

djos wrote:
This article just reinforces my contention that Marko is the one responsible for the belligerent approach by RedBull to the whole engine drama.

I'd say Mateschitz is ultimately the motivator for much of what we have seen. Marko is an employee and a friend, but not the origin.
Marko tarnishes the brands image, but if it was entirely independent and without Mateschitz blessing, Marko would be a distant memory.
Nothing is too sacred for Red Bull, and that is down to the vision set out by Mateschitz. Anything get's in the way of that is subjected to Red Bull's PR machine.
turbof1 wrote:I do stand and will keep standing at my previous point: Red Bull is not an engine manufacturer. That's not in their nature. They are good at building a chassis and aero, but having no experience in ICE design and very bad experiences in hybrid tech, they are reliant on being supplied
Either way, Red Bull will have learned from it. They were I think both arrogant and ignorant when they were demanding an equal PU from their competitors. It's a good lesson they took.
Sergio Marchionne sums it up.
I do not want to accuse anyone of anything. I don't want to defend [Renault chief] Carlos [Ghosn] or accuse anyone of anything. Is a team strong in terms of chassis if it has no engine? It is not a complete team. A team is strong when it has strong drivers, strong chassis and a strong power unit.
Red Bull can't blame the formula, the rules or the competitors. Here is an entity that owns 2 Formula one teams, 4 first division football clubs, 5 Television channels, an Air Racing series, A musical academy, a Record label, a Technology centre, 2 Ice Hockey teams as well as running one of the biggest promotional campaigns in the world.

They have diversified to the extreme as you can tell from their various activities. So why can they not apply this same level of diversification to F1?
It's not for lack of money, nor expertise. They have plenty of money and could acquire expertise.

It is something else that has stopped them.
Cold Fussion wrote:I would love to know what definition of Martyrdom Marko is operating off of, because it appears to be unrelated to any classical definition.
With that statement, I find Marko guilty of a the years biggest double irony.
JET set

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

It's not for lack of money, nor expertise. They have plenty of money and could acquire expertise.
Something something making investments worthwhile something something. You know the drill :D . Again, from my point of view they are not going to build a PU, but will have a (big) partner build it for them. In the future. I think that's fine. They will follow a similar route like McLaren did eventually.

For the record, I do not disagree with Marchionne. There is a huge difference between understanding a point of view and accepting that point of view. It often gets mixed up, but if you go back to earlier posts you will see that I defended the right of Ferrari and Mercedes to supply what and who they wish.

I also do not think the issue is diversification on its own. They can do that if they wish, but like any company with responsibility towards shareholders profit always comes first. For instance going from football direct and indirect revenue in first divisions, I think those are extremely worthwhile concerning ROI. I don't really see how building their own engine is going to generate direct revenue. From their point of view it's much more sensible to be supplied. Again this is understanding their view point. I do not agree with their demands at Mercedes or Ferrari to have top notch PUs. Those are competitors. I do believe however they had the right to ask this from Renault since it was an exclusive deal with Renault not being a competitor. Which will change next year. So again: the best solution for Red Bull is to find an independent and exclusive supplier, just like McLaren did.
#AeroFrodo

Webber2011
Webber2011
47
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:01 am
Location: Australia NSW

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

Who do you think that Independent and Exclusive Supplier might be though Turbo ?
I'd love to see it happen don't get me wrong, but with these regulations who in their right mind would sign up for such a task ?

Red Bull have the cash to entice someone like VW, pay all the bills and be named Porsche, or any other manufacturer they choose basically.
If they wanted to they could !

But who would take it on before the restrictions on development change ?

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

Webber2011 wrote:Who do you think that Independent and Exclusive Supplier might be though Turbo ?
I'd love to see it happen don't get me wrong, but with these regulations who in their right mind would sign up for such a task ?

Red Bull have the cash to entice someone like VW, pay all the bills and be named Porsche, or any other manufacturer they choose basically.
If they wanted to they could !

But who would take it on before the restrictions on development change ?
Well in my opinion the regulations are quite fine. There is now some room to develop atleast. The biggest issue currently is that there are questions about stability and leadership, basically as you said. I hope that the turmoil stops soon.

I think when we are talking about manufacturers like the VW group, incentives to enter F1 will have to transcend what Red Bull can possibly offer. They have to consider what it will do for company image, what it will in terms of long term revenue and profit.

But in my opinion the current breed of PU are very attractive concerning road car market relevance and R&D transfer! It's why I absolutely deem the call to simplify the PUs as absolute suicide.
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
djos
168
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

turbof1 wrote:Maybe if F1 wins more American hearts that Ford or GM could step in.
.
I'd have thought F1 would be perfect for Ford globally to market their small powerful and efficient ecoboost engines which are now available in pretty much every Ford vehicle range today.

Considering the history Stewart and Jaguar have had with Ford plus now RedBull is a top line chassis builder, who can deliver results, I'd have thought it'd be a no brainer.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

ChrisF1
ChrisF1
25
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

I think Ford are still licking their wounds having been burnt badly when they were last in F1 with Jaguar, and they're going WEC anyway.

User avatar
lio007
387
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

Post

Oh dear, even Newey is frightened of Honda. I really hope this won't happen and Renault takes a considerable step forward.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/newey ... -2016/?s=1