2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

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ScottB
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hemichromis wrote:Well Red bull has had talks with Honda and were very impressed with their development direction and work ethic.
This is why Red bull wanted a Honda engine rather than the Renault.
But presumably they were also impressed by the work Mario Illen did, hence him coming into the Renault program?

I'm inclined to see these sorts of statement as more political posturing than anything else.

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FoxHound
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hpras wrote:
FoxHound wrote:
But what intrigues me is that out of the last 30 seasons in F1, only one team has won the championship not being affiliated to a manufacturer. That team being Brawn. Both Williams and McLaren had close ties to Honda, and then Renault and Mercedes respectively.
Benetton?
Bang on....I missed them.
Last edited by FoxHound on Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FoxHound
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WilliamsF1 wrote:
FoxHound wrote:the RA109/BGP01 would never have raced.

RA109 had it raced would have won nothing and Red Bull would have won 5 titles

Honda would have been a little better than the Toyota and would have pulled out at the end of 2009.
I disagree.

The Honda was underpowered to the Mercedes, but the car was purpose built around the Honda engine.
Brawn managed to fit the Merc engine and Honda gearbox, but not without compromise.
However, an unnamed senior Brawn GP engineer, after the title winning race in Brazil, was reported saying that significant and unconventional changes were made to accommodate the FO108W engine
Further to this, mating a Honda gearbox designed for a Honda engine, to Mercedes engine designed for a McLaren gearbox had big repercussions.
Unlike Mercedes' other customers Force India who took supply of both the engine and a McLaren-designed transmission, the BGP 001 used a semi-automatic transmission designed in-house at Brawn. This provided seven forward gears and one reverse gear, and was operated using two paddles located on the steering wheel. As with the engine installation, compromises were made with the gearbox. It did not sit in the ideal position because the crank-centre height on the Mercedes engine was different from the Honda
We know the BGP001 was a monster, but it was of the Frankenstein variety. The Honda horsepower differential to Mercedes was approximately 40 Bhp, which at the time was the differential to Renault too.
Given the amount of compromises made, and the fact the BGP01 was almighty around corners, braking and traction zones this advantage would've been furthered with the original design intact. It should also be noted that the car could not fully utilise the Merc V8 as Force India and McLaren due to those compromises. So the like for like engine comparison is not as clearcut as what happens on a bench.

Had it been the RA109, I propose it may very well have been the greatest racing car in F1 existence. But that's pure speculation.
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Vortex Motio
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Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

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ScottB wrote:
hemichromis wrote:Well Red bull has had talks with Honda and were very impressed with their development direction and work ethic.
This is why Red bull wanted a Honda engine rather than the Renault.
But presumably they were also impressed by the work Mario Illen did, hence him coming into the Renault program?

I'm inclined to see these sorts of statement as more political posturing than anything else.
The context is that Red Bull don't have a 2017 engine, and that is their primary focus.

Red Bull continued to talk with Honda after deciding to use a Renault engine in 2016, so presumably they were discussing 2017 and beyond.

RBR publicized that they contracted Mario Illien a year ago. Now Renault will contract him for the '16 engine.

Given RBR's AVL Virtual Test Track rig in their bldg9 plus the 40+ engineers working there, they clearly aim to maximize the integration of whichever engines are in their chassis.

But it appears their engine choices for 2017 are somewhat clean sheet, wide open.

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djos
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ScottB wrote:I find Newey's comments a bit baffling to be honest...

I don't see why he can apparently have total faith in Honda improving from a much worse standing point than Renault, but then Renault won't improve.
Simple, Honda didnt sit on their hands for most of 2015, they made progress despite their dramas - Renault on the other hand rejected Mario Illien's work and then produced a total flop of an ICE upgrade and then had to go back to Mario with their tail between their legs.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

ScottB
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djos wrote:
ScottB wrote:I find Newey's comments a bit baffling to be honest...

I don't see why he can apparently have total faith in Honda improving from a much worse standing point than Renault, but then Renault won't improve.
Simple, Honda didnt sit on their hands for most of 2015, they made progress despite their dramas - Renault on the other hand rejected Mario Illien's work and then produced a total flop of an ICE upgrade and then had to go back to Mario with their tail between their legs.
And now they'll be getting the Illien upgrade they wanted? Or is the message now that it won't work either? How many times last year did Honda / Mclaren claim they were going to take big steps forward at whatever race? The Honda unit was still as unreliable at seasons end as it was at the beginning, so I'm not sure how Newey can be of the belief that the Honda will be brilliant and the Renault won't improve, or indeed why they rejected a 2015 Ferrari unit he now seems to think will have STR ahead of them...

Really I'm not sure what the point of this interview was for Red Bull, more public complaining about Renault achieves what? Everyone is aware of the problems they've had, we haven't even seen a 2016 car never mind be in a position to comment on comparative performance. I'd have thought after the rebadging and getting Illien involved that they'd be inclined to adopt a less confrontational tone in public, but it seems not!

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ME4ME
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Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

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Renault have indicated they will use a configuration that they know will work for the start of 2016. That probably means it will be a slow start to the season for both Red Bull and Renault. This doesn't mean they will not improve, but for Red Bull is does mean they'll have no realistic chance to fight for the WCC.

Illiens involvement will help in time, but not for the start of the season. Reading between the lines, I think Renault was holding back on putting sizeable resources into the PU-project. Prost confirmed Renault was thinking about pulling out of F1 untill days before Abu Dhabi. Honda on the other hand has been pouring money into the project and have been able to plan exacly what they want to do this winter. Newey is probably just being realistic about their chances, and surely a bit frustrated as well.

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FoxHound
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Re: 2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

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The problem is not just development, it's the turnaround time to get development parts produced and made into a complete engine.

Ferrari have been quoted as saying if engine developments are finalised in October, they'd only just be ready for the testing season in late February. That 3 to 4 months.

Renault have used up tokens they thought would bring an improvement in the middle of November. Plus the added downtime to see where the upgrades have missed target etc, you are looking at December before any concrete decisions are made.
So if Illien's upgrade sees the light of day, I'd assume the earliest would be late March or even April.

And given the schedule of the races, this could be put back to coincide with the European season.
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gandharva
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ScottB wrote:I find Newey's comments a bit baffling to be honest...

I don't see why he can apparently have total faith in Honda improving from a much worse standing point than Renault, but then Renault won't improve.
It's really simple. Honda knows where they have problems and probably can adress that problem over the winter by designing a new MGU-H system. On the opposite, Renault has several different areas where they need to improve (OK, mainly ICE...) but no clue how to adress. See last upgrade Ricciardo was racing...

ScottB
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gandharva wrote:
ScottB wrote:I find Newey's comments a bit baffling to be honest...

I don't see why he can apparently have total faith in Honda improving from a much worse standing point than Renault, but then Renault won't improve.
It's really simple. Honda knows where they have problems and probably can adress that problem over the winter by designing a new MGU-H system. On the opposite, Renault has several different areas where they need to improve (OK, mainly ICE...) but no clue how to adress. See last upgrade Ricciardo was racing...
As I already said, Honda had a number of upgrades during the year, which didn't really close the gap and certainly didn't improve reliability. Honda would need a substantial improvement to be at Renault's level, never mind leap frog them.

That's not to say that they won't, but I don't see where he's getting the fundamental belief that it will happen on their word alone, as we've heard it before. Hence me seeing it as posturing, not a genuine belief. Though again, what he imagines will be achieved by publicly bemoaning Renault yet again is anyone's guess.

hemichromis
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Hondas problem was a fundamental problem that could not be solved mid season. they have been aware of the problem since august but have been unable to solve it.
Honda's upgrades have been geared toward improving the ICE for next year as most other components will be changing.

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lio007
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Have a look at the provisiional entry-list from 30th November 2015:
FIA entry list

2 interesting things:
- RB confirmed on 4th of December their TAG Heuer partnership, and their "Renault deal", on the provisional entry list the engine is TBC, that's reasonable

- on 6th of December RBR confirmed they part ways with Infiniti, BUT it was already obvious with the publication of the provisional entry-list on 30th of Nov. if you have a look on the team name "Red Bull Racing" => without Infiniti

So in terms of the entry list I find it strange that they "confirmed" the split with Infiniti but their engine had TBC
Maybe Renault wanted to handle it that way.

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lio007
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"Well done" Mr. Marchionne...such comments play into the cards of Mr. E and Todt, saying the manufacturers can decide who may be allowed to be competitive and who is not.

Ferrari: Red Bull supply "dangerous"

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FoxHound
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lio007 wrote:"Well done" Mr. Marchionne...such comments play into the cards of Mr. E and Todt, saying the manufacturers can decide who may be allowed to be competitive and who is not.

Ferrari: Red Bull supply "dangerous"
And team who paid, designed and built their own engine can choose who uses it. As opposed to a team who don't design or build engines demanding it be theirs to use.

Especially one that throws 500 million dollars at their team for aerodynamic and chassis development only.

If we look at a team like Williams, that sort of budget would yield a full blown engine operation allied to their aero/chassis.
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ringo
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I agree with Marchionne completely.
For Sure!!