2016 Williams Martini Racing F1 Team - Mercedes

[Gaz.]

I think it is worth noting that back in 2014 during the Monza race, there was a specific conversation, I believe through the team radio, that Williams infact had to make a quick request at Mercedes to turn up the power in order to be able to overtake someone. Mercedes allowed it back then, but only for a few laps.

I can't see it in the (admittedly limited) transcript:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/09/10/2 ... ranscript/

[FoxHound]

I still cannot for the life of me see a reason for a William's switch. I see no argument usurping the current status quo.
I see a reason for Hill saying it though, and it has nothing to do with Williams.

If we look at Williams engine history after the domination of Williams Renault in the mid 90's, we see that they struggled with Mechachrome, came back strongly with BMW(best f1 engine for a period of time), but BMW ditched them as Munich bosses were "unimpressed with the continued lack of performance from the Williams cars".
http://www.pressetext.com/news/20030303036

They then switched to Cosworth for a season, Toyota for 3, back to Cosworth for 2 and then Renault for 2 seasons.
All the while slipping backwards and stagnating as rear to midfield runners. They had the worst period in their history for a pointless streak, podiumless streak, and winless streak.
What should be underlined too, is that alot of this decline merged with a frozen engine formula where engines were practically at a level performance difference. Aero and Chassis were the differentiators in this time.

The switch to Brixworth has yielded results that belie Williams real problems. Williams require investment, and better facilities to be able to produce better chassis and aero concepts.
While Hill, and a few others here focus on the arbitrary, it is again worth pointing out what the underlying issues are.

And still, I don't see how Honda will not behave any differently to Mercedes or Ferrari in their supply. There is no guarantee that supply will completely equal, and given that McLaren make the demands to the point of changing the size of components and their placement, any other customer will have to be second best.
This also should encompass that McLaren have Mobil lubricants, and any other supplied team will need to use a variant lubricant or develop their own, ditto the actual fuel.

I don't know if Hill has a book coming out or something, but his view here is lost on me. Had he proposed that Williams chase BMW again, or even Toyota, I'd see the sense. They'd be the first in line and recipient at source.

[efuloni]

What I think that Williams must be sure is that they will get the same treatment they always got no matter how well they go in the championship.

You see, the point is not even if they are in equalty compared to Mercedes. The one million dollars question is: will Mercedes give to Williams the same treatment they always did, even if Williams eventually build a car fast enough to beat the factory team?

If the answer is yes, than Symonds is right: they can be champions. They just have to build a good enough to compensate de PU deficit.

[turbof1]

I still cannot for the life of me see a reason for a William's switch. I see no argument usurping the current status quo.
I see a reason for Hill saying it though, and it has nothing to do with Williams.

If we look at Williams engine history after the domination of Williams Renault in the mid 90's, we see that they struggled with Mechachrome, came back strongly with BMW(best f1 engine for a period of time), but BMW ditched them as Munich bosses were "unimpressed with the continued lack of performance from the Williams cars".
http://www.pressetext.com/news/20030303036

They then switched to Cosworth for a season, Toyota for 3, back to Cosworth for 2 and then Renault for 2 seasons.
All the while slipping backwards and stagnating as rear to midfield runners. They had the worst period in their history for a pointless streak, podiumless streak, and winless streak.
What should be underlined too, is that alot of this decline merged with a frozen engine formula where engines were practically at a level performance difference. Aero and Chassis were the differentiators in this time.

The switch to Brixworth has yielded results that belie Williams real problems. Williams require investment, and better facilities to be able to produce better chassis and aero concepts.
While Hill, and a few others here focus on the arbitrary, it is again worth pointing out what the underlying issues are.

And still, I don't see how Honda will not behave any differently to Mercedes or Ferrari in their supply. There is no guarantee that supply will completely equal, and given that McLaren make the demands to the point of changing the size of components and their placement, any other customer will have to be second best.
This also should encompass that McLaren have Mobil lubricants, and any other supplied team will need to use a variant lubricant or develop their own, ditto the actual fuel.

I don't know if Hill has a book coming out or something, but his view here is lost on me. Had he proposed that Williams chase BMW again, or even Toyota, I'd see the sense. They'd be the first in line and recipient at source.

That's actually a very good post. Neither do I see why Williams should switch to Honda - they will not get a better treatment from Honda then Mercedes is already giving them. Mclaren has contracts in place that will keep Honda from properly supporting Williams beyond a normal supply deal.

I do however think that if Williams, and for that matter any current customer team, wants to take a shot at the WCC, they will need to follow the example set by mclaren and attract an independent manufacturer that will treat Williams as a factory team. That'll be a requirement, next to of course having an outstanding aero department and tools like an up to date windtunnel.

[LookBackTime]

"
...
I do however think that if Williams, and for that matter any current customer team, wants to take a shot at the WCC, they will need to follow the example set by mclaren and attract an independent manufacturer that will treat Williams as a factory team. That'll be a requirement, next to of course having an outstanding aero department and tools like an up to date wind tunnel."

I agree with the last post.
At the end of day we are converging on the same opinions

[fariz]

) huh.. Yeah.

[FoxHound]

That's actually a very good post. Neither do I see why Williams should switch to Honda - they will not get a better treatment from Honda then Mercedes is already giving them. Mclaren has contracts in place that will keep Honda from properly supporting Williams beyond a normal supply deal.

I do however think that if Williams, and for that matter any current customer team, wants to take a shot at the WCC, they will need to follow the example set by mclaren and attract an independent manufacturer that will treat Williams as a factory team. That'll be a requirement, next to of course having an outstanding aero department and tools like an up to date windtunnel.

Absolutely.

But I think money helps plenty in this area too. Williams need to make the jump that Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes have made, and the one McLaren are trying to make.
They need money to update the factory, and the costs here are exorbitant to the point Williams are paralysed to do anything about it. It's a non starter when it takes over a £100 million.

The other hindrance to Williams, was because of this very capital/money raising issue, they listed on the stock market.
27.39% was floated to raise cash. To my knowledge, I don't think this money was reinvested into the team.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... -flotation

But it creates an issue that may hinder external investment from larger automotive enterprises.

[turbof1]

It's not just about money. Yes Williams will definitely need a bigger budget, but let's also remind us of Toyota who never won a race despite having the biggest budget for years. Money will solve most problems, but not all.

They also need someone who can show the correct way. Someone like James Allison, or Peter Prodromou. Ferrari is such another such example where it went completely wrong by attracting Pat Fry, despite being up there as arguably having the biggest budget. Pat Symonds is a good manager and has brought a large improvement, but they still need more of the correct people.

So in short:
-bigger budgets
-better aero resources
-the correct people
-exclusive partnership for the PU with an independent manufacturer

Those are the things if they went to elevate themselves from their current position as a subtop team to a WCC contender. Of course, that does not necessarily have to be their goal. They are quite strongly ankered into their current WCC position, and they can be satisfied about that. Trying to aim higher comes with big risks in F1.

[FoxHound]

It's not just about money. Yes Williams will definitely need a bigger budget, but let's also remind us of Toyota who never won a race despite having the biggest budget for years. Money will solve most problems, but not all.

They also need someone who can show the correct way. Someone like James Allison, or Peter Prodromou. Ferrari is such another such example where it went completely wrong by attracting Pat Fry, despite being up there as arguably having the biggest budget. Pat Symonds is a good manager and has brought a large improvement, but they still need more of the correct people.

So in short:
-bigger budgets
-better aero resources
-the correct people
-exclusive partnership for the PU with an independent manufacturer

Those are the things if they went to elevate themselves from their current position as a subtop team to a WCC contender. Of course, that does not necessarily have to be their goal. They are quite strongly ankered into their current WCC position, and they can be satisfied about that. Trying to aim higher comes with big risks in F1.

Manor attracted Tombazis, with their tiny budget. I'm still scratching my head as to why Williams were not in for him?

The Toyota example you use is a good one, if clichéd. The problem for Toyota, is they had no experience in F1 and kept changing structures and personnel, sometime mid season or even twice a season.
Those problems have been well documented as a way of not running an F1 operation, even with Toyota's best intentions(and cash).

But 4 examples of teams who have spent Billions over the last 10 years in restructuring and upgrading make for telling reading.

Red Bull.
Mercedes.
McLaren.
Ferrari.

None else have won titles outside these 4 in that time. (Brawn Honda now Mercedes also subject to massive investment)

I'd say Williams most pressing issue is financing a challenge to get to their former glories. If they are serious about getting to the front, they need investment.
But who can fill that void? And at what cost to Williams as a singular entity?

[ME4ME]

Manor attracted Tombazis, with their tiny budget. I'm still scratching my head as to why Williams were not in for him?

The Toyota example you use is a good one, if clichéd. The problem for Toyota, is they had no experience in F1 and kept changing structures and personnel, sometime mid season or even twice a season.
Those problems have been well documented as a way of not running an F1 operation, even with Toyota's best intentions(and cash).

But 4 examples of teams who have spent Billions over the last 10 years in restructuring and upgrading make for telling reading.

Red Bull.
Mercedes.
McLaren.
Ferrari.

None else have won titles outside these 4 in that time.

I'd say Williams most pressing issue is financing a challenge to get to their former glories. If they are serious about getting to the front, they need investment.
But who can fill that void? And at what cost to Williams as a singular entity?

Renault. Brawn ?

I have to agree though. I can't see Williams winning any championship in their current state, nor anyone else for that matter, besides the 4 teams you mentioned. It's just the way it is. Financial capacity opens up possibilities which other teams cannot afford.

I think realistically Williams can hope to win some races at most. With the budget they have, they should aim at improving trackside operations (elimination most/all errors), eliminate track specific weaknesses as well as conditions specific weaknesses (rain, low grip). Also they should aim to get a lead driver.

[FoxHound]

Renault. Brawn ?

I have to agree though. I can't see Williams winning any championship in their current state, nor anyone else for that matter, besides the 4 teams you mentioned. It's just the way it is. Financial capacity opens up possibilities which other teams cannot afford.

I think realistically Williams can hope to win some races at most. With the budget they have, they should aim at improving trackside operations (elimination most/all errors), eliminate track specific weaknesses as well as conditions specific weaknesses (rain, low grip). Also they should aim to get a lead driver.

I noted Brawn, but Renault is an exception. And then, they too spent 100's of Millions on their F1 operation.
5th Highest at near 400 million in 2008 and comparable to Honda, McLaren and Ferrari. Perhaps an addition to the "big four" then?
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/t ... get-4456m/

I agree with most of your post, only problem with lead drivers, is that they have to be experienced and fast.
This means expensive.
If Williams had 2 pastor Maldonado's each paying 15 million a year for 3 years, that gives the team around 90 million in cash. Minus roughly 5 million for possible lower points finishes(It could be higher points finishes, just speculating here) and then a further 5 million for additional carbon fibre materials...
This sort of hard nosed business decision needs to be made if Williams are to progress. I get that they are the purists ideal team, but F1 changed a long time ago.

[LookBackTime]

Williams at the Autosport International Show 2016 - Highlights

[Mr Brooksy]

The end of that video reminds me of a question I've regularly asked myself since Williams did the Jaguar concept... What are the chances of technically partnering with Jag and by extension Tata in the near future? I can't see BMW joining with Williams again as they will more than likely want their own glory like that of Merc. Toyota could be way more complex and troublesome than it's worth (assuming they will employ the same board run program they did with their own team) and the likes of VAG are pretty tight with RBR. No US manufacturer seems even remotely interested in F1 (besides a very flimsy link between Ford and Haas before the Ferrari deal was announced).

As much as I desperately want Williams to return to the top like the 90s, I just can't see them doing so without more $ to spend on infrastructure and the top people, with manufacturer support.

[proteus]

I wonder if the deal with Martini became heavier than 15 millions per season.

[FoxHound]

The end of that video reminds me of a question I've regularly asked myself since Williams did the Jaguar concept... What are the chances of technically partnering with Jag and by extension Tata in the near future? I can't see BMW joining with Williams again as they will more than likely want their own glory like that of Merc. Toyota could be way more complex and troublesome than it's worth (assuming they will employ the same board run program they did with their own team) and the likes of VAG are pretty tight with RBR. No US manufacturer seems even remotely interested in F1 (besides a very flimsy link between Ford and Haas before the Ferrari deal was announced).

As much as I desperately want Williams to return to the top like the 90s, I just can't see them doing so without more $ to spend on infrastructure and the top people, with manufacturer support.

In the short to mid term, Williams are best off staying with Mercedes. The next quote is in relation to this.

I wonder if the deal with Martini became heavier than 15 millions per season.

The longer they can finish in the top 4, the more money they can generate to reinvest in the team. Every inch of that car will become more valuable in terms of marketing.
There are other benefits.
By being in the higher echelons, consistently, will also attract any would be manufacturers to join them.

Jaguar are a bit of a stretch, but possible. The likely candidates will be the usual suspects of BMW, Toyota and VW.
There is also the possibility of KIA/Hyundai, who have expressed interest in the past.
Then you have the independent options like Cosworth, which currently doesn't make sense, but could do if the proposals for the "alternative" engine are made real.

I almost forgot to ask....

What data will Williams be getting from the technical partnership with Manor? The are supplying suspension and transmission components, mated to an engine they use, so apart from the cash they receive, are they getting data too?